Just the 'cut and thrust' of politics? or typical bullying, blustering behaviour?
http://www.keziadugdale.com/2013/12/16/cycling-on-easter-road/
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Keith Brown's reply to Kezia Dugdale
(96 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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Seems to be a breakdown in communication, I recall the original debate and Keith brown did seem to be suggesting that unsure cyclists should just get on with it because an official from cycling Scotland or wherever it was was happy, in his response he claims not to have drawn that conclusion.
Kezia dugdale seemed to pick up what he was saying the same way as me so I wonder what others think.? This is the right place I think for a detailed discussion of semantics, inference and pragmatics of language. Any conclusions might need to be simplified for Keith if he has a language processing issue?
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'm inclined to think he meant exactly what he said, but did not appreciate the significance. basically a vehicular cycling response - which would make perfect sense to him and his generation, without any sense of the broader implications.
and once it's been pointed out to him, he's got all defensive.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I am quite sure that Kezia's interpretation is 'reasonable'. I can't remember whether I watched the recording of the debate at the time, but I certainly read the transcript.
If KB thinks he was being 'helpful' (a possible interpretation) by mentioning (factually) that one of hls officials finds it OK, then he is mistaken.
Whatever his motivation, the tone of his response is distinctly unpleasant.
I couldn't possibly risk speculating whether his reply is coloured by the fact Kezia is a) younger b) female c) in the Labour Party d) not a 'proper cyclist' - like him e) other.
Not only has he revealed a less than diplomatic side he has also lost the opportunity to meet her on site to have a sensible assessment of the 'truth' and a useful 'caring' PR opportunity.
I don't expect he's 'put Kezia in her place' either...
Posted 11 years ago # -
Keith's an important man.
He's a Motorways man.
He's far more important than this attention-seeking, impudent wee lassie that can't summon the nerve to pedal up Easter Road, and he's written a letter to make sure that she knows it.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Keith cycled (off-road) to work once from Fife, for a dare or something. He is now the arbiter of all such things.
Posted 11 years ago # -
What Kezia Dugdale said:
"There is no way I would cycle to work, because
that would involve cycling up Easter Road in the
morning at peak times; it is just too dangerous."What Keith Brown said:
"Kezia Dugdale, who has left the chamber, mentioned
Easter Road. One of the officials from Transport
Scotland who is sitting at the back of the chamber
regularly cycles up and down Easter Road and
feels that it is a safe road to cycle. Such things are
subjective and depend on people’s experiences
and perceptions of the environment around them,
but other people feel that the road is safe in the
circumstances."I can't think of another occasion where a Minister has used an official's personal choice to try to justify a Government position. The official cannot intervene, or make their personal views known. Are they happy to cycle up Easter Road? We will never know. I imagine if you are a regular cyclist who works at Victoria Quay but needs to attend meetings at St Andrew's House or the Parliament then you probably would cycle up Easter Road - as the alternatives are even worse. Does that automatically mean you think Easter Road is safe - doubtful. How many people here have a commute that includes sections they feel to be at least a little unsafe - most people I would guess.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'm no fan of KB, but isnt he correct ? Deciding whether a road is safe enough for you or not is subjective.
So far as basing policy, I didnt see any data saying its safe or otherwise. And the flip side of this is, KD is using her own subjective assessment to argue against policy.My commute is safe enough, else I wouldnt do it. I am guessing same applies to everyone. Ditto, my drives, safe enough... Its not a perfect world, going downstairs in the morning is not without risk but you'd deem it safe enough.
Posted 11 years ago # -
If KB is a "proper cyclist" then I'm more disappointed he didnt take me up on my offer of joining me on my bike commute, which I made to him when I saw him riding the tram to review that infrastructure. I even offered him a bike but "he was too busy". He p1ssed off on some jolly to holland to review their cycling infrastructure and policy shortly afterwards. I hear he's signed up for the PfS in 2014, no doubt he'll be a properer cyclist after dealing with all the traffic & trams you encounter on that....
Posted 11 years ago # -
Two anecdotes don't make data but one anecdotal "I think it's safe" doesn't trump "I think it's unsafe". You could, well I could, argue that if one person thinks it's not safe then no matter how many people say it's safe then it's not safe enough. Because whatever you do to make it safer for the 'unsafe' person, can't make it less safe (although you might make it less fun) for the 'safe' people. So, by making it safer you keep increasing the overall level of safety.
But if it were safe, what would you expect to see? I'd expect to see more than a few confident men. (He says, assuming that the official is a bloke).
If it's true that "such things are subjective and depend on people’s experiences and perceptions of the environment around them" then the job of the policymaker is to wonder what are the experiences that are making this seem unsafe for some people, especially, if there are people for whom it appears to be safe. What are these people's experiences or perceptions that differ so much? There's something to learn here not something to dismiss.
Posted 11 years ago # -
If Ms Dugdale felt that strongly about the issue then she shouldn't have left the debate early.
Posted 11 years ago # -
She already explained why she left the debate early.
Deciding whether a road is safe enough for you or not is subjective.
Yes, and the vast majority of people in Edinburgh and in the UK as a whole have decided that the roads are unsafe for them to cycle on. Therefore those concerns need to be addressed, not brushed off.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Yes, the 'experienced' cyclists are arguably already making a difference.
The groups that need to be targeted and empowered to use bicycles as transport for pleasure, commuting and utility are those who subjectively find the current infrastructure (and associated hazards) too dangerous/scary/intimidating.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Until this year Ms. Dugdale had hardly cycled as an adult.
She was persuaded to take part in Pedal on Parliament when 'I don't have a bike' was countered with 'we can lend you one'.
She ended up piloting Ian Murray MP from Harrison Park to Holyrood on SRD's tandem.
Not a bad effort really.
Then she bought a bike and has used it on off-road paths and (presumably) some quiet roads.
This must mirror a lot of people - some who 'graduate' onto busier roads - some don't (and probably give up).
Of course even more don't try, however much they 'would like to, if it was safe'.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I think Keith Brown is implying that the official is female - he says "... you appear eager to discount the views of another cyclist simply because her experience and viewpoint is different to your own..."
As I understand it, Kezia Dugdale was making a point about perceptions of safety. She does not percieve Easter Road to be a safe place to cycle. Many people would agree with her. Just because someone else says "well it is fine, really, you just need to hold your line even when you've got some oaf in a taxi tailgating you" that doesn't make it something that they want to do!
Posted 11 years ago # -
@fimm
Missed that. Thanks.Posted 11 years ago # -
"well it is fine, really, you just need to hold your line even when you've got some oaf in a
taxiwhite van tailgating you"Has been my experience.....oh and being overtaken at speed on the wrong side of a traffic island by outraged drivers, once the miscreant was driving a Reliant Robin.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Don't forget - Easter Road is a Core Path.
I don't think it's ever been established if it's legal to cycle responsibly on the pavement there (not a good idea), or if CEC has any extra responsibility for cycling on that (and other) roads.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I know someone who regularly travels up the A9 to Inverness.
They feel it is safe to travel at 80mph+ and overtake at will.
Does this mean it is safe and doesn't need dualling?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Don't forget - Easter Road is a Core Path
It's also a "high street" for the local community at its southern end and has a school just off it at its northern end, so it should be a living street. However, current traffic levels and speeds are, if not killing it, then at least giving it a real good kicking.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"... once the miscreant was driving a Reliant Robin."
That's not one I'd own up to.
Was Jasper Carrot driving with the window down and shouting, "Nnnneeeeeeeeeeeyaaaaaaawwwww!" as he went past to make it sound fast?
Posted 11 years ago # -
sg37409 "I didnt see any data saying its safe or otherwise." KeziaDugdale.com (link above):"I visited crashmap.co.uk – a valuable website that records any road traffic crashes in neighbourhoods across the Country. When I searched Easter Road and filtered it to only include road traffic incidents involving cyclists in the last three years the result showed that there had been 19 incidents."
(and since the A9 has been mentioned, CycleStreets.net shows it had less cyclist accidents on the whole A9 in the latest 3 years available there (2008-2010), and even for any vehicle injury accidents there were fewer per mile of these on the A9 than reported cyclist injuries on Easter Road.)
Posted 11 years ago # -
Was Jasper Carrot driving with the window down and shouting, "Nnnneeeeeeeeeeeyaaaaaaawwwww!" as he went past to make it sound fast?
This was a couple of years ago. I must say I was surprised how fast the bleeder could go: nippy acceleration from being quite light weight (fibreglass body shell)?
The worst bits of Easter Road are, basically, all of it. Drivers swinging around junctions without looking, trying to put on a wee burst of speed before the next lights/turnoff, tailgating, aggressive overtaking, cutting across the road at crossroads.....oh did I mention there's a blooming silly roundabout at the foot of the road too? That can be 'fun'.
The Council have narrowed the road at certain sections with build-outs and traffic islands to try and slow drivers down. Doesn't really work, unless there's a cyclist trying to traverse these pinch points. :-(
Having said all this, it's still preferable to riding on Leith Walk. Speeds generally slower for a start, only one lane of traffic in either direction. Easter Road really ought to be a 20mph zone though. It's largely residential, lots of shops at the top end, a secondary and primary school at the foot. Also another two primary schools nearby the top of the road.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Just had a thought - I guess that what Kezia Dugdale is suggesting is that this isn't just about Keith Brown's reply to her, but that his response to any person who says "I'd like to cycle, but I've have to use XYZ Road and I don't have the confidence to do that" is to say "Well there are cyclists who use XYZ Road..."
Posted 11 years ago # -
Not sure if including Easter Road made any sense -
Posted 11 years ago # -
Dugdale invites Brown on an Easter Road cycle. Brown says no.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"
Mr Brown declined Ms Dugdale’s invitation. He said: “I know Ms Dugdale and I both agree on the need to increase cycling safety, and the prevalence of cycling generally which the Scottish Government is committed to.”"
On one hand why should he bother?
BUT this is not some pesky 'cycle campaigner' or loony constituent but a parliamentary colleague (and/or opponent) - and a 'rising star' too.
What's to loose? Show that she is wrong? If she is right then he can blame CEC(?)
Ms. D. is cycling as a direct result of being persuaded to take part in PoP last year and subsequently buying a bike.
So if you are on Twitter you might send her a message of support (even if you thing Easter Road is 'safe' - plenty other people still haven't the courage to cycle anywhere!)
Posted 11 years ago # -
Lots of reasons why KB wouldn't accept the challenge (in no particular order):
1. It provides good publicity for Kezia Dugdale.
2. He may well be caught on camera in a very unflattering light.
3. If he blames CEC for the traffic they can point to their sterling record on cycling (which KB is on the record as praising) and then ask for more cash.
4. There will be awkward questions about ministerial cars going between Victoria Quay and the Parliament/St Andrews House when Ministers are exhorting people to cycle.
5. He is an inexperienced cyclist and may actually be one of those people that are too scared to cycle along Easter Road.Posted 11 years ago # -
As far as I can tell from his expenses even Patrick Harvie uses taxis from Waverly. He was speaking in the school last month but I didn't get a chance to ask him about this. The head teacher might have told me off for upsetting people with my crazy bike ideas.
Posted 11 years ago # -
WFB - think you might be wrong about that. I can't find any record of Patrick Harvie using a taxi to travel between Waverley and the Parliament (at taxpayers expense anyway). You can check this online at:
http://mspallowances.scottish.parliament.uk/Default.aspx
Not that it has anything to do with Keith Brown's reluctance to cycle along Easter Road. I don't really think you can criticise the Greens for their support of cycling in Scotland, certainly not in comparison with all the other parties.
Posted 11 years ago #
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