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  1. cc
    Member

    There's nothing at all in any national poll to suggest that there's likely to be a conservative majority government at the next election

    Au contraire :-) The Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties are all conservative as far as I can see. There will be a huge conservative majority after every Westminster election whatever the result.

    (Tory government) 's probably more likely in an independent Scotland.

    Yes - a major weapon of right wing parties the world over is an appeal to patriotism. Since Thatcher, and the abolition of the Unionist party, the Tories in Scotland have lacked that. Eliminate the British dimension and let memories fade a bit and the Tories, or a replacement right wing party, will start to be able to appeal to Scottish patriotism.

    On the earlier referendum exchange, i can't understand either why you would use that to 'punish' a political party? For me that question is nothing to do 'party' politics.

    Yes. The referendum is about choosing our course for the coming centuries.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. Charterhall
    Member

    Quite ironic that so many trendy left wingers claim cycling as their own but the two men who are doing most to promote it in the UK are both Tories.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. SRD
    Moderator

    As I'd argued before, it is easier for eg right wingers to liberalise immigration, or left wingers to invade Iraq. Best example being de Klerk letting Mandela out of jail. Lots more examples

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. crowriver
    Member

    two men who are doing most to promote it in the UK are both Tories.

    Okay we had a discussion about whether Boris had done quite as much as he has claimed to have done for cycling. He has made some promises about the 'Crossrail for cyclists' in future so let's see.

    The other Tory is...? Can't think of anyone off the top of my head. Is Chris Hoy a Tory? Bradley Wiggins? Chris Froome? (They might all be as far as I know). Or is it the Plebgate ex-whip we are talking about?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. Charterhall
    Member

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-24578165

     "I'm a big fan of this cycling revolution taking place in Britain. In my constituency in Oxfordshire at the weekend you just see swarms of people in Lycra on their bikes. We need to be a fitter, healthier country and we need to encourage sport and competitive sport."

    Unfortunately, as I've noted before, there's nobody in Scotland of any significance doing anything to promote cycling.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. SRD
    Moderator

    David Cameron may be a 'fan' but I have yet to see him doing anything of significance'.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. gembo
    Member

    The people who set up Spokes and continue to run this organisation are the people who have done the most for cycling in Scotland

    Similar organisations at grassroots level such as CTC have done more for cycling than politicians

    There is PR puff and then there is substance

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    "there's nobody in Scotland of any significance doing anything to promote cycling"

    "the people who have done the most for cycling in Scotland"

    Those are both true.

    They also highlight (part of) the problem.

    I have been involved in 'promoting' cycling for many years. This has included selling people bikes, working with schools - organising rides, encouraging cycle training (not just as a tick-box activity) and encouraging 'Safe Routes' campaigning.

    I have also been involved in more general 'promotion'. Some of it might have been effective.

    I'm sure Keith Brown thinks he is involved in promoting cycling. I'm sure he thinks that announcing that he will ride Pedal for Scotland next year 'promotes cycling'. I'm sure he believes that actually riding PfS is promoting cycling.

    Clearly Cycling Scotland believes that PfS promotes cycling.

    Of course it does, and closed road sportifs, and medal winning athletes and the opening of the QBC etc.

    BUT

    it's clearly not enough.

    There is now some consensus that what is required - to get more people just riding bikes - is better infrastructure and changed driver behaviour.

    Campaigning for the first part is hard work and without the dedicated individuals within Spokes a lot of what Edinburgh has probably wouldn't exist.

    Driver behaviour would change if more people cycled (that more would obviously include 'drivers'). Attitudes have changed on drink driving, but that required political action - legislation and enforcement.

    There is some movement on 20mph but (so far) a distinct lack of willingness to enforce.

    In London (where everything is far from perfect) probably the biggest change was the introduction of the Congestion Charge. This was done by Ken without a referendum. His Labour Party colleagues in Scotland insisted on having to hold a referendum before such 'controversial' measures could be implemented.

    The 'two cordon' scheme that CEC proposed was less than ideal and the (almost inevitable) defeat somehow meant that a revised version couldn't be developed.

    If there had been a Yes in that referendum, there would have been less traffic and money for PT and walking/cycling.

    Of course the lack if that revenue stream is unfortunate, but the abandonment of any serious attempts to restrict traffic is really disappointing.

    The massive opportunity of the tram work disruption to demonstrate what could happen if some things became permanent - eg closure of Russell Road - has been squandered.

    So any significant changes are likely to require a lot of campaigning. Promoting cycling - beyond saying 'use the Family Network, it's great" is perhaps a bit premature...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. cc
    Member

    Thanks chdot. Epic post.

    Promoting cycling - beyond saying 'use the Family Network, it's great" is perhaps a bit premature...

    and they can't even say that - more like "Use the Family Network, it has terrible potholes, ice all over the road and cars parked all day on double yellow lines at blind junctions" :-/

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. Instography
    Member

    Jeez, just by sitting on our bikes and pedalling around we've each done more to promote cycling than David Cameron has.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    "Epic post"

    I'll take as seasonal greetings...

    Maybe time for a "Family Network - the reality" thread.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. Nelly
    Member

    "Maybe time for a "Family Network - the reality" thread."

    Not sure if this counts as family network but it shows how family unfriendly our infra is.

    I live about 3 minutes walk from Sciennes PS but I simply can't allow my son to ride to school as he would have to cross two busy roads and even then the pavement opposite the school is too narrow to be truly shared use.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. crowriver
    Member

    Here's one of the first decisions Cameron took to 'promote cycling': he abolished Cycling England. Or rather his minister Pickles did. Also mentioned in that article, the Coalition cut funding for speed cameras, forcing local authorities to switch off thousands of them. I'm sure literally turning a blind eye to speeding motorists has lead to safer roads for cycling, hasn't it?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. Charterhall
    Member

    Google David Cameron on Cycling, returns page after page of positive stories reporting his support for cycling. Google Alex Salmond on Cycling returns no positive stories at all.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. SRD
    Moderator

    I guess it defines how you mean 'support'. Not being party political with this one, I'm willing to give Boris a fair bit of credit, but can't see it for Cameron at all.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. crowriver
    Member

    page after page of positive stories reporting his support for cycling.

    Well he does have a background in PR. As the saying goes, "actions speak louder..."

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    Nelly, I taught my three daughters to cycle and provided them with bikes until their teens. I now forbid them from cycling on the roads.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. Charterhall
    Member

    Crowriver, criticising a politician for being good at PR is like criticising the Pope for being Catholic.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. gembo
    Member

    However pointing out that a politician is engaged in PR about cycling rather than actually doing anything substantial to improve infrastructure , or introduce strict liability is a different type of analysis from pointing out that the pope is a catholic.

    The point about Alex Salmond remains legitimate as he does not even engage in PR about cycling.

    However, the people who actually do anything positive for cycling are the grassroots organisations like spokes because what politicians need to do for cyclists such as infrastructure changes and strict liability would I imagine lose them votes?

    The politician who introduced congestion charges in London, thus paving the way for cycling to be promoted was Ken Livingstone. The congestion charge being a real policy tht had real change and which despite it now being accepted possibly lost Red Ken votes.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. Charterhall
    Member

    Introducing a congestion charge is one thing but its the likes of Boris and DC that have popularised cycling, moving it out of the trendie leftie ghetto and into the aspirational mainstream. 15 years ago I was regarded as an oddball for cycling to work, some of my colleagues used to call me Swampy (remember him ?) reflecting the image that cycling had at the time. That would never happen now, my colleagues are far more likely to be cyclists themselves.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    "its the likes of Boris and DC that have popularised cycling, moving it out of the trendie leftie ghetto and into the aspirational mainstream"

    Not sure that would stand up to serious scrutiny.

    "now, my colleagues are far more likely to be cyclists themselves"

    Is that to work or as 'weekend roadies' (or both)?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. Calum
    Member

    It's nice that Boris and Dave recognise cycling as a Good Thing, but that's about all the praise they deserve. Cycling really isn't increasing in any significant way in Britain and the idea that it is "mainstream" is wishful thinking. Modal share is stuck at less than 2%.

    If you spend most of your life swanning about Oxford, Cambridge, and Central London - as these high-up political types tend to do - then you see a lot of people on bikes and I suppose it's tempting to think that everything is rosy, but away from those places cycling as a mode of transport is basically extinct.

    I don't think politicians are going to take the initiative on this. The Greens are doing some good work in Brighton, but they're not going to form the next government, and you only need to look at the state of Glasgow to see what the Labour Party thinks of cycling (and indeed walking). Improvements for cycling need to be seen as vote-winners - and, fortunately, people are starting to protest for these things.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. gembo
    Member

    it would seem that charterhall has much love for boris and David.

    Just to reiterate

    Ken introduced the congestion charge. This is what can be designated as an actual political change.

    Boris says stuff but he doesn't introduce any actual initiatives that make any difference, I have cycled the super highway and it is not great.

    The slightly camp pink gammon robot merely says nice things,

    Charterhall is in love and as we know love is blind

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. Charterhall
    Member

    "Is that to work or as 'weekend roadies' (or both)?"

    Both, along with mtb and triathlon. And way, way above my level, at least two keen triathletes that I know of at executive level. I couldn't tell you if they ride to work.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. Charterhall
    Member

    @gembo, yes I vote Tory if that's what you mean.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. Colonies_Chris
    Member

    ""I'm a big fan of this cycling revolution taking place in Britain. In my constituency in Oxfordshire at the weekend you just see swarms of people in Lycra on their bikes. We need to be a fitter, healthier country and we need to encourage sport and competitive sport." (David Cameron)

    This comment exposes the common political failing of confusing sport cycling with everyday cycling. It's particularly bad with the Tories as they tend to see everything in terms of competition.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. gembo
    Member

    @chartehall, you have already been quite open about your voting preference.

    I mean that you cannot see beyond your love of your political choice to an unspun world. However, I also acknowledge that you might be trying to bait the liberals. On this forum including myself.

    As with the helmet data, I am always keen to distinguish between opinion and fact.

    Further admit I would be struggling to resolve my cognitive dissonance if a Tory actually did something like improve infrastructure or introduce strict liability. but as I have previousy stated, no politician will do that and indeed Red Ken's congestion charge action may have lost him the mayor's job.

    As previously stated , I agree with your analysis of Alex Salmond.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. HankChief
    Member

    Can someone check my logic please...

    Census Data

    On Table 1, Edinburgh Residents have 181k cars or vans in their households. This is spread across 134k (60%) of the 223k total households.

    Table 9 has 86k Edin Residents driving to work or study, with a further 18k as passengers, out of 326k commuting residents.

    Does this mean that

    1. average car occupancy (to work/study) is 1.2 (18k+86k/86k)

    2. Less than half of cars/cans are used as usual method to travel to work/study (86k / 181k)

    3. At least 48k (134k-86k) residents choose not to drive to work/study. I.e. car owning households less car commuters.

    In practice, you would have some car owning households having 2+ drivers, hence the 'at least'.

    Many thanks

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. gembo
    Member

    Logic seems sound.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. HankChief
    Member

    Ta

    Posted 9 years ago #

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