CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Cycle Network

(360 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by Simon Parker
  • Latest reply from wingpig

  1. SRD
    Moderator

    @simon thanks for the updated link.

    None of this explains why eg your idea of going across town on grange loan/whitehouse terrace, with a little jink on morningside road is better than grange road-strathearn-chamberlain and via holy corner to Colinton road. (neither is great to be fair)

    or why on earth you would take people on the red route up morningside drive instead of along balcarres st. Again, this involves a jink along morningside drive and an extra right hand turn on the A702. (not mention a hill)

    But your designation of 'works' doesn't allow me to judge why you might have chosen that route, and/or whether my objections to it are sound (although I think unecessary right hand turns is pretty basic).

    I think there's still quite a lot to do on step 2, judging by the bits i know. But I'd still like to know the basis on which the original decisions were reached, so that I can decide if my improvement is actually an improvement, or if i'm just missing something that others would find preferable.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    "Looks mostly like a map of Edinburgh's main roads."

    Edinburgh's main roads very much are my cycle network, probably because I'm a bit testeroney and just figure that I've the right to use those roads regardless of what vehicle I happen to be using, but also because they're the quickest way to get around. This is clearly not an approach currently suitable for twelve year old children, or old people or...normal people frankly. The difference in experience on my way to work this morning between getting through the 4x4s queueing at Watsons and then being on the canal is striking. I went from keyed-up and concentrating on roadcraft to a sort of gentle reverie in the space of a minute. We need much more of whatever it is the canal brings if Edinburgh is going to become a cycling city.

    When I think about encouraging cycling I think of my partner who, despite being a physically fit, confident, motorcylist (if she ever logs in here her user name will be 'No, I were right about that saddle') just can't get over the feeling that arterial traffic in Edinburgh is simply too dangerous to cycle in. Getting from our house to her work involves crossing a major junction, going on the pavement or going literaly miles out of the way. Edinburgh's like that due to its sculptural geography. Lack of knowledge of quiet routes is not the issue.

    So change will take public money and therefore political will. Whatever forces came together to get the breath-taking sum of £800,000,000 allocated to a t**m line that turned the town upside down for five years will need to be reassembled. Pedal On Parliament is the best hope I've seen for doing that. Let's put our energy there - into getting articulate, assertive human beings of all ages in front of our representatives.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. Simon Parker
    Member

    edd1e_h

    I got involved in this after SRD's blog, Making sense of cyclists 'shocking' behaviour. This was written in response to a YouTube video produced by @EDIworstdrivers which showed a cyclist riding the wrong way down a one-way street. The section of road in the video is non-functioning.

    chdot

    The rationale behind introducing a cycle network isn't simply to tell cyclists which way to go, as I have already explained. More than anything else it establishes the network and provides a solid foundation from which to build upwards, but there are other reasons as well.

    Consider Dave Horton's point about removing lanes on a dual carriageway to create a top-notch space for cycling. "Howls of protest, obviously. But the prospects of such change have to be higher the more people see them as forming part of an ongoing societal project to re-design our cities away from cars towards bicycles. The more people can see and understand the bigger picture, the more supportive they will be."

    Taking the long view, you would begin by making the minimum change for the maximum effect.

    Think about backcasting, as well. It is important that these main road routes form part of the network, for reasons which I presume are obvious to you. At what point do they become part of the network? I need somebody to answer this question, please.

    Nobody has suggested that lots and lots of people would think that the introduction of a basic network has suddenly made the roads 'safe'. Indeed, this argument is absolutely a distraction, because as I have also said, it only needs the people on the margins to begin with, the people who are more likely to do it, to encourage them.

    Regarding your other point, the idea of the Family Network (dual network) is not at all esteemed by any of the cycling bloggers that I read, including Kim Harding. The only thing to be said in its favour is that it doesn't give people the wrong impression.

    Kim recently said that no one on the Council really understands the concept of bicycle as transport. But we understand it, don't we? So why don't we explain to the Council that access and convenience and connectivity and density are very, very important?

    Jess Bowie says of cycling (source): "There are no downsides – it's free and gives me 50 minutes of exercise a day." How inspiring messages such as this are!

    SRD

    Is this any better?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    "Nobody has suggested that lots and lots of people would think that the introduction of a basic network have suddenly made the roads 'safe'. "

    True, but you did write (yesterday) -

    "The introduction of high-density low-engineered network should be sufficient to double the cycling population"

    As has been shown in all sorts of surveys (some/many) people don't cycle because they think/feel 'it' (roads?) isn't safe.

    I don't know how/why a "high-density low-engineered network" would rapidly double the number of people cycling.

    OK you didn't say "rapidly".

    Current council plans could (might) double things in about 5 years.

    Though now we are in the realm of what doubling means (this is more about what councils/ governments think than aimed at you) - twice as many people cycling (some time)? Miles cycled? Number of people cycling to work?

    If councils/govs did more/better/different in terms of infrastructure and policies the 5 year doubling (I'm being optimistic) could become 4 or maybe 3.

    A coherent network would be a very useful part of this, but I doubt if it would even be the catalyst.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "It is important that these main road routes form part of the network, for reasons which I presume are obvious to you."

    Yes.

    See post above your post.

    "At what point do they become part of the network? I need somebody to answer this question, please."

    WELL - they ARE (part of) "the network" - just the part a lot of people don't feel comfortable with - especially existing users on bikes.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    "Kim recently said that no one on the Council really understands the concept of bicycle as transport."

    I don't think he is strictly correct. It's undoubtedly true that not enough councillors do and the officials that do aren't at the top of departments!

    "But we understand it, don't we?"

    Interesting question.

    Perhaps.

    If the "we" is people on this forum, for all its communality, (and diversity), it 'represents' no-one and is a tiny minority of a tiny minority!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. wingpig
    Member

    There are already roads in Edinburgh. There are already people prepared to cycle on them in their current state. There are already people who know where these roads lead.

    "The section of road in the video is non-functioning."

    That would appear to indicate that 'functioning' should be taken to mean "legal to cycle along (in both directions)" (if your network map will not include any single-direction indicators) as well as "physically possible to cycle along", unlike the blocked-off West Approach Road/Drysdale Road join. Fountainbridge is functioning between Lothian Road and Semple Street as long as you're heading west.

    What is considered functioning by a capable rider on a light upright bike with little luggage might not be considered functioning by anyone carrying luggage or passengers, users of long-wheelbase or multiple-track vehicles or people who are mobility-impaired on or off their cycles. This is a problem even on the big purple lines on the Spokes map.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Simon, suppose that every man jack who's posted on this thread offers to take next Monday off work to implement this network with you as chief executive. What would our instructions be?

    Should we bring shovels? Laptops? Bicycles? Cans of paint? Bags of money?

    I have literaly no idea of what your 'path to live' might - in any concrete sense - be.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    "Regarding your other point, the idea of the Family Network (dual network) is not at all esteemed by any of the cycling bloggers that I read"

    I'm not defending it. Some of it (much still at planning stage) is much better than previous/existing infrastructure.

    A separate issue is that it hasn't really drawn enough on the Core Path network plan. This was the product of of a long involved public consultation that CEC has some responsibility towards.

    THE POINT is that CEC is spending considerable time and money (with Sustrans support) developing and implementing it.

    It's the current 'game in town' - whatever anyone thinks - or thinks would be better.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. Simon Parker
    Member

    Cycling: the way ahead says that the risk of an accident is the only theoretical drawback to cycling. They go on to say:

    It is certainly true that there are too many accidents which involve cyclists. But a great many mistakes are made when comparing statistics and when taking measures which are supposed to improve cyclists’ safety.

    We have this idea that by removing a negative (the dangers of cycling amongst traffic), this would encourage a positive (more people to cycle). But there is much more to it than this.

    Cycling has many positives, and it is important to build on these, as well.

    @ chdot

    I don't know how/why a "high-density low-engineered network" would rapidly double the number of people cycling.

    Of course what is needed is a high-density high-engineered network.

    Portland has a cycling modal share of over 6%. This has been achieved with essentially a 'bare bones' network. So it can be done.

    A network is more than the sum of its parts.

    "A comprehensive, city-wide cycle network is a basic precondition of mass cycling." (ECF)

    I think it would be the catalyst.

    Regarding the dual network thing, there really does need to be a rethink about this. It's a very poor idea which I have never heard anyone able to defend.

    CEC / Sustrans have to be more honest with themselves. Remember, there isn't a town or city in the world (outside of the UK) which thinks to use this strategy of dual networks. Why doesn't this strike anyone as noteworthy?

    The main road routes ARE (part of) "the network"

    Which "network" are you talking about?

    @ wingpig

    According to Roger Geller (Portland), there are four types of cyclist. About 7% of the population are categorised as the Enthused and Confident. As I understand it, a basic network would be useful to this group.

    @IWRATS

    Once the network has been planned to everyone's satisfaction, the next thing to be done is to study the feasibility of the network. This would enable people "to truly grasp the situation".

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. wingpig
    Member

    "About 7% of the population are categorised as the Enthused and Confident. As I understand it, a basic network would be useful to this group."

    The existing roads upon which you are overlaying your network plan are already being used by cyclists, some of whom may already be aligned with the characteristics exhibited within the Enthused and Confident grouping.

    Such people are already using the roads, presumably finding them useful.

    Unfortunately, 'useful' may range from "This is the best road in the world! It takes me directly from home to shops/work! Without encountering a single aggressively-driven motor vehicle!" to "This road is horrible,: cratered, aggressively-driven and somewhat out of the way but it's the best of a bad lot" - "useful to this group" needs a little qualifying and quantifying as a justification/measure of success.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. neddie
    Member

    @Simon.

    So far in the this thread, I've only seen you give 2 specific examples of what 'non functioning' means: one-way streets; and cobbled streets.

    I'd like you to provide a list of specific things, relating to a cycle network, that are to be considered 'functioning' & 'non functioning'.

    I'm just looking for a simple list, 6 items of functioning, and 6 items of non-functioning. I don't need any dictionary definitions, quotes, references or an essay the size of Wales. Just a simple list with 12 items on it...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    "Just a simple list with 12 items on it..."

    And I'd like a list of specific, measureable, assigned and realistic tasks for our first day of work implementing the network.

    You are the chief executive. We want to be able to demonstrate that we did what you asked of us.

    What are our tasks?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. Simon Parker
    Member

    "Useful to this group" needs a little qualifying and quantifying as a justification/measure of success.

    As you say, wingpig, the existing road network is useful to existing cyclists, and the thing to be done is to make it useful to all cyclists, including the Interested but Concerned (about 60% of the population). How?

    This is from the chapter entitled 'Daring to redistribute space and means':

    Some towns are short of space, even on the major routes. Taking a political decision to reduce the space allotted to cars (whether for traffic or for parking) in order to create facilities for cyclists requires a certain amount of skill, entails explanations for the population and has to be implemented gradually.

    If a cycle network is established, and made to work, the next time a major road gets resurfaced, say, it can be put back differently.

    I am guessing that you have already seen this blog from Mark Wagenbuur. If not, be sure to check out the video at the end.

    And now let's assume the major road is not incorporated into the cycle network. What happens the next time it needs to be resurfaced? What can you say to convince people it would / should be put back differently?

    It has been argued here that if the network is introduced to a minimum level of functioning, the next time a road needs to be resurfaced, the Council might say: "There are more cyclists using this road now, and cycling KSIs are much reduced; we don't need to put the road back differently."

    However, I believe that the Council are sincere in their desire to enable more people to cycle. I believe that if they are shown the most effective way forward, they would be very receptive to a more holistic approach.

    The more people can see and understand the bigger picture, the more supportive they will be. (Dave Horton)

    I also believe they won't go anywhere near this proposal unless it is endorsed by the cycling community in Edinburgh.

    Let us remind ourselves what Ricardo Marques Sillero had to say:

    Sometimes politicians want to check first if the idea works, for instance making one or two isolated bike paths before making a stronger decision. But isolated cycle paths are almost useless if they’re not connected, making a network from the beginning. Therefore people don’t use them and the politician becomes disappointed.

    So we need to give them the very strong message that bits and pieces here and there don't work. We need to say that we have a signing strategy which is much, much better than one colour per route. We need to say that the proposed network would provide the foundation from which to build upwards. We need them to understand that we are prepared to compromise in order to meet a long-term objective. We need them to understand by how much we need to compromise, as well. We need them to understand that the key is sustained investment, and that introducing the network is but one step, that's all.

    @ edd1e_h

    I'll get back to you.

    @ IWRATS

    I am not the chief executive. I have drawn some lines on a map. I have read a book which explains how to start. I have developed some software to enable the feasibility of a cycle network to be studied. I have said that I would be prepared to "give" this software to Spokes, for them to use. I am waiting to hear back from Spokes.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @ Simon Parker

    "I am not the chief executive."

    Sorry, that wasn't clear. I'm proposing a thought experiment. You imagine you are the chief executive of the Cycle Network project. We are the workers on day one of the implementation.

    What do you ask us to actually, concretely do? What are our real-world tasks?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. wingpig
    Member

    Can you expand a little on "established" and "made to work", as highlighted beneath?

    "If a cycle network is established, and made to work, the next time a major road gets resurfaced, say, it can be put back differently."

    The Leith Walk post-trambles restoration consultation affair demonstrates that the council already has the capacity to understand that it can put roads back differently, and can seek input from anyone who might have an opinion, no matter which modes of transport they use.

    The Quality Bike Corridor implementation demonstrates that putting a road back differently isn't magically massively effective, even whilst purportedly bearing cyclists specifically in mind on a route (it has already been established that this is not a network) known to be frequently cycled-upon.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. Simon Parker
    Member

    Ah, a thought experiment. Okay, in that case, I have been contacted by a "manufacturer". At some point very soon, I am going to ask the "manufacturer" for some sponsorship money.

    I want to get the GeoVation-funded software back online, and I want it to be adapted for Edinburgh. I would like for Spokes to take control of the website. I would like for Spokes to oversee a feasibility study.

    What this entails (amongst other things) is taking photos and logging them onto the photomap. I would encourage everyone who supports this proposal to contribute to this process.

    Once the study has been completed, I would like for Spokes to form a clear idea as to what the basic cycle network would look like.

    I would then like for Spokes to present a proposal to the City Council.

    There is more to say on this issue, particularly with regard to what happens to the royalty payments. But I would like to hear from Spokes first, please.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    "royalty payments"

    ?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. Simon Parker
    Member

    Can you expand a little on "established" and "made to work"

    I can try.

    The idea is that with the establishment of a functioning cycle network, more people would be encouraged to cycle more often.

    Why?

    A functioning cycle network would deliver greater accessibility and more convenience. For the "large number of potential cyclists [who] are already thinking about cycling today", the evidence (from Portland, say) is that a functioning cycle network would be useful.

    It is understood that a functioning cycle network would not be sufficient to encourage the Interested but Concerned to cycle, but it would be sufficient to encourage the Enthused and Confident (about 7%).

    What will the cost be? (page 45):

    Another possible basis of calculation is supplied through analysing the real budgets allotted by several German towns: an order of magnitude for the overall budget needed may be calculated on the basis of EURO 5 per inhabitant per year for a period of five to seven years (according to the size of the town) in order to introduce an entire pro-cycling policy (network, information, promotion).

    This was written about fifteen years ago, but if we went to those same German towns now, what would we see?

    Read again ... in order to introduce an entire pro-cycling policy (network, information, promotion) ... I don't know any more about this than what is written in this book, but I think I understand it.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. Simon Parker
    Member

    @chdot

    I would like to hear from Spokes first, please.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. neddie
    Member

    @Simon.

    Recommend you understand who Spokes actually are, and what they stand for 1st.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    "Royalty payments"

    I've tried to understand what's going on in this thread - I've tried to express my bafflement and irritation at what I seem to be seeing, but words surely fail me here.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Ah, I see, you've drawn a map and want paid now. And you want someone else to see if the network is feasible, and implement it, and at their cost presumably?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. wingpig
    Member

    A-ha...

    "...I would like for Spokes to form a clear idea as to what the basic cycle network would look like.
    I would then like for Spokes to present a proposal to the City Council."

    So the "introduce the network" bit you've been not explaining for the past month therefore seems to comprise:
    You show Spokes your map.
    Spokes then get to deal with the messy bit of somehow ensuring that the imaginary network is always borne in mind whenever the council does anything with any of the affected roads at any point in the future.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. Simon Parker
    Member

    Okay, I expect to receive royalty payments for the map. I would like to donate the most of these payments to cycling good causes in Edinburgh (for the lifetime of the copyright). I would like to have nothing to do with how the money is spent, or how it is distributed.

    The imaginary network, as you call it wingpig, would be made to work, and then further developed "on the basis of priority interventions and a timetable".

    It's network first, and then a separation of functions. Are you really trying to tell me that you don't understand this?

    If Spokes would prefer to have nothing to do with this, then no one is holding a gun to their head. Maybe they don't think much of a top-down approach, maybe they don't think much of compass colours, but would it kill them to say so?

    If they do want to be involved, I would like to work cooperatively with them.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    "I expect to receive royalty payments for the map"

    Who from???

    And why?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. Simon Parker
    Member

    I envisage that the map would be paid for by advertisers / sponsors.

    Why? Why what? Why do I expect to receive royalty payments? Because it is important to obtain a yield from the work that I put in (principle 3 here).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Simon Parker

    Well I for one would be proud to see some small fraction of my council tax diverted to your bank account.

    And don't worry about the bit of your network that goes through some railings, across a field and off a small cliff. Reality won't hesitate to catch up with the network once a proper commercial arrangement is in place.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. wingpig
    Member

    "The imaginary network, as you call it wingpig, would be made to work, and then further developed 'on the basis of priority interventions and a timetable'.

    It's network first, and then a separation of functions. Are you really trying to tell me that you don't understand this?"

    Please explain how it will be "made to work".

    When you provide some information I shall endeavour to understand it.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. Simon Parker
    Member

    IWRATS

    I do not anticipate a penny of your council tax coming my way. As I said, I imagine that the map would be paid for by advertisers / sponsors (e.g. Ikea and the Tube map in London).

    wingpig

    Read again ... in order to introduce an entire pro-cycling policy (network, information, promotion) ... I don't know any more about this than what is written in this book, but I think I understand it.

    Are you specifically saying that you do not understand this?

    Posted 10 years ago #

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