Simon, I really don't mean to be rude, but there are quite a lot of clever(-ish) people on here, quite a few of whom are heavily involved in cycle campaigning and who are familiar with the processes by which cycle infrastructure comes about (I'm not one of them). I think it is fair to say that nearly everyone is baffled by what you have posted so far. You aren't going to get very far in developing a cycle network if you can't communicate with other people, and if you can't do that here then you are unlikely to be able to make an impact in the wider world. Sorry.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Cycle Network
(360 posts)-
Posted 10 years ago #
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I am not specifically saying that. Read again. How will the network be "made to work"? You have not yet said.
I can understand some fairly complicated things, so don't try the old "it's not the absence of explicit information in my answers which is lacking, it's your ability to comprehend them" tack.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Okay here's my view, if we're going to get together and co-operate and look through a design of a cycle network in order to encourage cycling then I suggest that we agree that the design has an open license placed, on it that way it can be incorporated into maps or placed on the ground without having to pay any kind of licensing fee.
Simon keeps going on about his magical software, if so open the source onto github and I'll have a look at getting it running if it's worthwhile.
Posted 10 years ago # -
The map and the software are copyrighted. That isn't going to change.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Good luck Simon, perhaps you would do best to become a cartographer and draw your own maps rather than overlay lines on google maps, or perhaps they (google) are not quite so precious about sharing and copyright. Strikes me that you would like some ideas from forumers without giving much up.
Posted 10 years ago # -
You're not going to take the high ground from me, Claggy Cog. No way. You want to do this for free? How noble!
I was prepared to give up about 70% of the royalty payments, so don't even start with the high and mighty stuff.
The central point I am making stands tall. Some of the people on this forum have done their utmost to find the fault, but the central point remains untouched.
The thing I wish to protect is my intellectual copyright (compass colours), and if I have to give that up just in order to be able to work with you ... absolutely no way at all. How dare you!
Edit: Spokes charge £5.95 for their map, and I want to find a way to make a network map available to the public for free. How dare you.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"The map and the software are copyrighted"
That's fine, your choice.
I'm sure you'll offer to share with anyone who has helped to improve 'your' map.
"The thing I wish to protect is my intellectual copyright"
Fair enough.
"(compass colours)"
Good luck with that. Hope none are the same as these ones -
The Spokes map is a physical object. Part of the price goes to the retailers, part to the printer, some to the designer of the whole artwork.
Think the Crown might be getting a chunk for its copyright.
Posted 10 years ago # -
It's undoubtedly true that not enough councillors understand the concept of bicycle as transport and the officials that do aren't at the top of departments!
Effective cycle campaigning takes effort, time, political engagement and dirty compomise.
The most effective thing any one of us can do is work together with groups like SPOKES, PoP and CTC to collectively press for change.
Right. Introduction equates to paint on the road, signs on poles and studs at pathsides, then. Ta.
The more people can see and understand the bigger picture, the more supportive they will be. (Dave Horton)
Your model doesn't seem to be "piecemeal but perfect". It seems to be universally imperfect.
Backcasting starts with defining a desirable future and then works backwards to identify policies and programs that will connect the future to the present. The fundamental question of backcasting asks: "If we want to attain a certain goal, what actions must be taken to get there?"
I think signs do have a part to play in converting people. When I transitioned from car driver to cyclist, one of the things I struggled with is route choice.
We can only improve decision-making and policy development with solid research.
The central point I am making stands tall. Some of the people on this forum have done their utmost to find the fault, but the central point remains untouched.
The last one is from me.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"I have a bad feeling about this."
That's from Star Wars.
Modified Spokes maps with Innertube branding were being given away free during Bike Week a couple of years ago. Gembo has also scored free copies by turning up really early to the annual Spokes Bike Breakfast.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"I have a bad feeling about this."
Me too :o(
Posted 10 years ago # -
Now, it is clear that my proposal is not acceptable to the people on this forum, and this presumably means that Spokes and PoP can give me the Teutonic response ("Kein antwort ist auch ein antwort".)
And the reason my proposal has been rejected? Who's going to answer that question?
The reason we've decided to reject the five-step plan which Ritt Bjerregaard said it was to essential to launch is because ...
Posted 10 years ago # -
I wasn't suggesting that you do it for free, but garnering information from others to use for yourself and then calling it your own is not right. I dare because you are not saying anything or showing anything that is anything other than a lot of lines overlaid on a map. Frankly I don't care what you do with your map, whether you come up with one or not is completely immaterial to me. People have been improving the network of bike routes for many years now without your input and it will continue thus, and I can remember a time when there were a lot of disused railway lines that are now paths for people, not only cyclists to use, which was due to lobbying done by people who cared for other cyclists and pedestrians making their lives and commuting more pleasant, including the likes of Sustrans, and in Edinburgh, Spokes.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Garnering information from others to use for yourself and then calling it your own is not right.
That is not how I see this. I always saw this as a collaborative effort, and I was (and am still) very happy for this to be recognised.
Depending on which way you look at this, I had either the good fortune or the terrible misfortune to get lost one time too many whilst using the London Cycle Network. From this I had the idea of compass colours, and I have worked hard for fifteen years nearly in order to develop this idea further. I ain't going to just give it away.
Besides which, this work has value to a sponsor. So let them pay all of the royalties, and let the public have a map for free.
We need to work hard to try to see eye-to-eye on this. But actually, I think many people on this forum have no interest at all in doing that. And I have to wonder why not.
Now I have to do some bleeding philosophy.
What came first? the chicken or the egg? Creationists say the chicken, evolutionists say the egg (i.e. the female reproductive cell in animals and plants).
Okay, what came first? the mind or the matter? Actually, strange as it seems, it turns out that the mind came first. And as it goes, I believe that this mind is divine.
To quote Thomas Paine, "The choicest gift of God is the gift of reason." Now, don't start getting the wrong idea about this, please, because Thomas Paine was as much of an atheist as I am.
But anyway, if you have a reason to oppose the five-step plan, then share it with us.
But if you can't share it with us, then maybe it's because - I don't know - you haven't got reason on your side. And why should anyone listen to you, then?
If you have reason on your side, then you have God on your side, and all things, therefore, are possible. That's what I believe.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Don't go putting no words in others' mouths. Spokes and PoP might just be busy.
Would you mind popping and getting your dictionary off your bookshelf (or the internetrical equivalent) and telling us what yours states as the definitions of "introduce", "establish" and "untouched" so that we can establish that there have been no major linguistic impediments we didn't know about affecting upthread exchanges?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Simon we only speak for ourselves, personally I've generally avoided this thread because the whole thing just seemed odd.
You appear out of nowhere with a bunch of lines drawn on a map, ignoring what I would regard as obvious routes certainly for area's of town I know well, and not taking into account the routes that the council are planning. So I've basically being staying quiet.
I also challenge that *you* need some kind of financial compensation for this. Many people here give there time and money for free to further cycling in this city, as well as the people that build tools such as cyclestreets.
I actually think that the idea of a "coloured"/numbered network is good. But if you want my help then I don't expect you to retain the intellectual rights over that.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Okay, I think we've stopped listening to each other now. chrisfl, I don't want your help, thanks.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Simon, I also have kept my trap shut but I am just struggling with this entire concept.
I feel you are doing a lot of wheel reinvention here.
If you want to bring something new to the party, then great, but (not speaking for anyone else) you are sounding a bit preachy about 'your idea' which - when it comes down to it is just a bunch of lines on a map.
One final point from me - one of the beauties of cycling for me is that in many ways routes can be quite random. Even though most days I am going to the same place, I can vary the route considerably, go quicker, slower, on large roads, on quiet roads.
And I dont need to be told how to do it - and I really really feel that most people are the same.
Sure if I moved to a new city I might seek out a forum like this and ask where the best map is.
But route prescription is horrible - and I simply dont believe that sending us all down the same roads like a bunch of drones is going to force the council to build us infra.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I have said before, Nelly ...
My central point is network first, and then a separation of functions. Nobody has said anything against this. All of the criticism has been directed at me personally, or at the way I have tried to present my case.
Welcome to the club.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I think what we have here is a cargo cult: "an attempt to recreate successful outcomes by replicating circumstances associated with those outcomes, although those circumstances are either unrelated to the causes of outcomes or insufficient to produce them by themselves. In the former case, this is an instance of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy." Wikipedia.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Simon - I'm coming of the bench. I'm going to explain why your "proposal" has not been "rejected" and look at what is actually in Cycling: The Way Ahead for Towns and Cities.
Your "proposal": You have produced a series of lines on a google map and asked for comments on these as potential cycle routes. Some commenters took the time to offer suggested improvements while others, myself included, offered advice and comment on legal and political barriers to making this a reality. You have dismissed these comments out of hand, in the process showing up a surprising lack of knowledge about turning your proposals into reality. Honestly, after 15 years at this you really should know about the traffic regulation order system. That said - I would have been happy to engage with you on legal and policy matters if you had responded more positively.
Anyway, my main point here is that your proposal hasn't been rejected by the forum. It can't be. You just haven't grasped what CCE is about. We are a collection of individual city cyclists - we can neither approve or reject anything. CCE is a great forum - polite, erudite, slightly unhinged and oh, so Edinburgh. Thing is, slapping people down who are trying to help and then telling them you hope to spin a buck from their efforts just isn't CCE form.
I can't speak for PoP or SPOKES, but I can't see that you have given them any reason to respond. You have been openly critical of cycle campaigns in other cities who have not responded positively to your ideas. On top of that, they are entirely voluntary bodies who (through time and effort invested in the tedious work of committees and consultations) have developed sophisticated campaigns that have real influence through political and officer connections. Why jeapordise these through signing up to your proposal, bearing in mind the advice you have received about the political and legal challenges it would face.
Europe: The Way Ahead: You fundamentally mis-represent the contents of this document. You give the impression that it focuses on a "network first" approach. This isn't the case. It places key importance on establishing structures within local authorities to develop cycling initiatives. It then describes two ways of encouraging cycling - one network based (top down) and one based on improving specific situations (bottom up). In addition, the network based approach has a five to ten year timescale attached, not the instant timescale you keep mentioning. This is all set out on page 56.
You also appear to misunderstand the purpose of the network based approach. The network is principally a tool to be used by the authority to prioritise investment in cycle infrastructure. It isn't (in the short term at least) really for public consumption. You can see that the Edinburgh family cycle network is effectively following this method - routes only being publicised once facilities are in place.
Also, it is disingenuous to conflate your "proposal" with the contents of this document - as I see them as fundamentally different things. Even if CCE could reject your proposal, that does not automatically mean CCE would be rejecting the contents of that document.
Despite what you probably think, I'm sorry you think previous comments have been attacks on you rather than your proposal. I don't see that people have been anything other than civil to you - at worst exasperated at your refusal to listen to them.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Richard Feynman:
So they arranged to make things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head for headphones, and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas—he's the controller—and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land.
Do you think that if Edinburgh installs some high quality pieces of infrastructure here and there that this would be sufficient to recreate the successful outcome of cycling countries like the Netherlands?
Page 44:
According to its specific features and its resources, each town will have to choose its priorities or specific actions to take. Reproducing apparently effective action taken elsewhere could have negative consequences if the concerted and coherent programme on which such actions have been based is not taken into account.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Morningsider,
You are criticising me, and you are criticising the way I have tried to present my case. You have said nothing to refute my central point.
You have produced a series of lines on a google map
I have planned (with the help of others) a cycle network.
You have dismissed these comments out of hand
Morningsider, I do believe it is possible for the authorities to do a great deal without being impeded by the planning process.
You referred to the table on page 56. There is another one on page 57. It says:
Most of the measures listed in boxes 1, 2 and 3 are inexpensive, simple to implement, easy to study and not strictly tied to the concept of a cycling network. Given their low cost, the small amount of extra work which they entail and the possibilities of corrections in the case of error, such measures may be adopted automatically. Even if their impact is not massive, it will be real.
If there is more to this that I don't know about, please, Morningsider, I promise to keep an open mind.
My main point here is that your proposal hasn't been rejected by the forum. It can't be.
My central point could still be refuted by members of this forum, and it hasn't been.
You fundamentally mis-represent the contents of this document. You give the impression that it focuses on a "network first" approach. This isn't the case.
In addition, the network based approach has a five to ten year timescale attached, not the instant timescale you keep mentioning.
Fair point.
The network is principally a tool to be used by the authority to prioritise investment in cycle infrastructure. It isn't (in the short term at least) really for public consumption.
Okay.
Posted 10 years ago # -
This thread needs Uberuce ... Or cake
Posted 10 years ago # -
Well this has been a surreal old thread, so let's recap and distil it down to the surreal essence..
(Apologies to The Reduce Shakespeare Company)
Act I - Scene: somewhere in Edin Uni
Simon: I fancy doing a cycle network for Edinburgh, but I lack local knowledge
Sara: Oh just ask on CCE, lots of altruistic help there, see how it goes, take em with a pinch of salt.
--
Act II - CCE thread
Simon: <clackety-clack>Is this a map I see before me, for a new network, the google toward my Geo-vision?
<S-I-L-E-N-C-E>
<Simon soliloquay> Would that I could cycle it myself. But CCE can do that bit, I'll keep quoting from erudite stuff like "The way ahead" and drawing lines on maps from my office. <Gollum voice> "The IP rights, do not mention the IP rights, my precious"
Simon: <clackety-clack>Spokes, POP, wherefore art thou now?
<S-I-L-E-N-C-E>
--
ACT III
CCE: <clackety-clack>My Lord, what's all this "introduce in a week" stuff about anyway?
Simon: You guys are all negative, my kingdom of colours & royalties for a two-wheeled horse scouting my network.
The Jester: Horse? Royalties?
Simon:<clackety-clack> I have been voted out of the CCE house
Morningsider:<clackety-clack> No you havenae.
Simon:<clackety-clack> As Feynman said to da Vinci, or was it the actress to the bishop, if it looks like an airport line and it quacks like an airport line, it still won't be a dutch segregated cycle network.
CEC Council: Don't drag our Tram NETWORK into this.
<Curtain>Posted 10 years ago # -
ADMIN EDIT
"F@k this."
Dear Simon,
You have broken the basic rule of this forum (see below).
It's been entertaining.
Good bye.
Posted 10 years ago # -
One of the things which makes this forum nice compared to many others is the "no swearing" rule, which usually keeps it polite, even during arguments.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Hmm, but it did start so well, didn't it? And we were able to create a thing of beauty, I think. But jealousy, as they say, is the worst of all faults, because it makes a victim of all of us. What a waste.
Posted 10 years ago # -
You mentioned jealousy in your "neice Tilly" post, too. Is that what you think we should be or imagine we already are?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Look, what you have presented to us isn't a plan. It is a series of routes, some of which are physically impossible, some of which are undesirable for reasons of terrain, road surface or traffic. Having drawn in these routes you have not given us any idea how the 'plan' is to be implemented. As it stands the network you have drawn is unsuitable for encouraging people to cycle, so what is meant to happen in the meantime? This is the question you have failed to answer. Is your plan for the benefit of the council for its long term development of cycling and as such no one on the street will be any the wiser until it is complete? Is it meant to be partially developed and improved piecemeal in which case as it stands it will not resemble a useful network for a considerable period of time if ever, or is it meant to be implemented as it is (which you implied up thread) which might lead to novice cyclists being put into intimidating and dangerous situations? Without you answering these questions your plan just is 'lines drawn on a map.'
Posted 10 years ago # -
@ le_soigneur
Outstanding!!!
Posted 10 years ago #
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