HankChief - if it would help, you and I could go round the main paths and measure the widths? I was paying attention as I cycled along them tonight (I'm such a naughty boy) and actually, I think most of them *are* 2.5m wide. So, if you fancy wandering around with a tape measure so we can determine the widths at the various narrow points, let me know.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
2 New Dropped Kerbs on Craigs Road
(119 posts)-
Posted 10 years ago #
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"so we can determine the widths at the various narrow points"
Also note any points where (if) width is reduced by encroaching vegetation.
Posted 10 years ago # -
mkns - good idea but I've already done it - in the good weather before work this morning!?!
This thread is already of epic proportions so I thought a long post with a few photos wouldn't go a miss...
So heading North from Craigs Road
We have 3.0 metres wide
East Craigs Path Network by HankChief, on FlickrFacing uphill / East near Bughtlin Burn 3.2 metres
East Craigs Path Network by HankChief, on FlickrFurther West near South Bughtlin Burn 3.0 metres
East Craigs Path Network by HankChief, on FlickrNow heading North adjacent to Maybury Road 2.0 metres
East Craigs Path Network by HankChief, on FlickrHeading back up the hill by North Bughtlin Burn 2.5 metres
East Craigs Path Network by HankChief, on FlickrNorth again adjacent to Maybury Road 2.0 metres but overgrown in places
East Craigs Path Network by HankChief, on FlickrA further North still near the end of Barntongate Ave - 2.0 metres but only if you scape away quite a bit of undergrowth. The path here is quite bumpy due to tree roots.
East Craigs Path Network by HankChief, on FlickrThere are many other routes around ECPN, but the above should an idea why cyclists would want to use it (responsibly).
So with a bit of a clear up of undergrowth, we have a network of paths at least 2m wide, with several of the key parts over 3m. So one would hope that there wouldn't be any objections to it being 'shared' even if it isn't strictly illegal currently (another email to the council about to be sent!)
Posted 10 years ago # -
I raised a pothole report on that last section that last section at the start of March. I didn't mention cyclists in particular just wheel users such as prams and pushchairs as it's when I'm pushing my son along it that I have most difficulty.
I suspect they haven't even inspected it yet but I would love to be proven wrong.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Cycling by Design recommends an absolute minimum width for a shared use path of 2m (1.5m for very short stretches where there is no alternative). Details in table 6.2:
So the ECPN looks fine for shared use (assuming it isn't already).
Posted 10 years ago # -
Cycling by Design recommends an absolute minimum width for a shared use path of 2m (1.5m for very short stretches where there is no alternative).
Interesting! There's one bit of path that HankChief didn't measure which I'd be interested in knowing the width of. When I went along it tonight, I suspected it is also 2m. I shall take the tape measure out with me tomorrow when walking the hounds.
[ later ]
Actually, I think the 1.5 metre bit is relevant to the "Pedestrian only space" - the layout of that table is shockingly poor so makes it difficult to tell which cells are relevant to which rows.Ignore the above - I now see the note below explaining about 1.5m.
Posted 10 years ago # -
On the subject of replacing the 6 steps to the South of Craigmount HS, they have forwarded my request onto AMEY as it is their responsibility because it is a Public Private Partnership School. Not sure if this is good news or not...
Well, I've just had to send my second chaser to AMEY to get to answer to "What would AMEY need to take this proposal forward?".
I'm happy to go through the Headmaster & PTA but it would be good to understand what was required first.
Posted 10 years ago # -
HankChief - they won't do it. Unless it is a contractual requirement, or the Council stumps up an outrageous amount of cash, no PPP operator will ever do anything they absolutely do not have to do (and even that isn't really guaranteed).
Whatever the opposite of "working in the public interest" is - that's the definition of a PPP operator.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Morningsider is correct, unless the steps are specified in the original contract. Craigmount was one of the earlier PPP schools and the council negotiators improved in their negotiating of contracts as time wore on. Compare the somewhat functional early breeze block of craigmount to the temple of light and circular corridors that is juniper green primary. Staff also have panoramic view of Edinburgh from the staff room balcony.
The difference between these two is wide. However the later high school at Tynecastle also better specc'd than craigmount.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Thanks. I do appreciate that it is a big ask for a private company, but given the alternative level access is 600m away, I'm interested in how they justify not at least considering it.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Sadly they don't have to justify it to anyone other than their shareholders and we all know what they are primarily interested in. I wonder how much they would charge the council to do it.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Craigmount was one of the earlier PPP schools
Are you talking about the new Craigmount, the one built around 10 years ago? Or the old one, built about ~40 years ago?
Posted 10 years ago # -
New one built ten years ago
If using the PPP schools eg For training room. You sometimes have to go through rigmarole to get a cup of tea. Various forms from procurement, quite pricey tariff and then some quite burly and uncomfortable looking employees with MITIE or similar polo shirts push the trolley in.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"New one built ten years ago"
Right -
So the council will already have paid for it...
Posted 10 years ago # -
No, the PPP schools are paid for over thirty years.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Latest update from CEC.
They are public roads but don't appear on CEC's list of public roads due to a "historic omission".
The list is being updated and should be done by the end of the year.
On the plus side they do recognise that the paths are suitable for being shared use and are starting consultation with the local tenants associations and councillors.
So any other residents of Gyle/Drumbrae ward may want to drop a note to Cllr Keil, Cllr Aldridge and Cllr Cairns .
Posted 10 years ago # -
On the theme of the six steps, I've now had a response from the contracts part of CEC who AMEY forwarded my request onto..
They have talked to Edinburgh School Partnership who own and manage the PPP portfolio.
Apparently they would only do something if required under DDA or a legislation change requiring them to do it.
Not a big surprise given the scepticism posted above, but kind of odd that they can have an entrance (albeit a back entrance) that doesn't have ramped access and a 600m detour to get to a level access and then quote the DDA attractive me.
Anyone know the details of the DDA?
Posted 10 years ago # -
The DDA has been repealed and replaced by the Equality Act 2010. The 2010 Act requires service providers to make "reasonable adjustments" to allow disabled people to access their services (as did the DDA). However, the 2010 Act places all public bodies under a new Public Sector Equality Duty, which is explained (at length) in the attached document:
Posted 10 years ago # -
I know how much you love these updates on specific bits of infrastructure in West Edinburgh, so here is the next thrilling installment.
I couldn't go to my recent Neighbourhood Partnership meeting as it was during the day, but I did put forward 3 questions.
Here are the minutes from the meeting
Does the Partnership recognise the difficulties caused by the absence of suitable dropped kerbs around East Craigs?
Dave Sinclair advised that the dropped kerb programme is ongoing; Tommy McLean suggested contacting known groups e.g. young mums to possibly arrange a walkabout to ascertain their views.
·Does the Partnership support the redetermining of suitable paths within the East Craigs Path Network to be of “shared use”?
The local neighbourhood team and the Councils specialist Cycle team is currently considering the network and consulting with local groups, with regard to “shared use” paths.
·Does the Partnership think it is acceptable that the southern access to Craigmount High School from North Gyle Loan is via 6 steps rendering it unsuitable for those with disabilities, those with limited mobility, those pushing prams or those riding bikes or scooters?
The Board was advised by the Edinburgh Schools Partnership that Craigmount High School is Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) compliant and that there is currently no budget for enhancing the area. Cllr Edie suggested that this could possibly be considered under the NEPs projects.
Decision: To note responses and agreed actions
A reasonable start to exchanges - a few to many 'possibly's for my liking, but I guess they were always going to be noncommittal at this stage.
I'm intrigued to know what the dropped kerb programme is.
I'm also please that they recognise that the Craigmount steps could come out of Neighbourhood money rather than school maintenence funds.
If anyone else is local and able to write to the local councillors supporting these changes, that would be appreciated.
robert.aldridge@edinburgh.gov.uk
karen.keil@edinburgh.gov.uk @Karenkeil1Posted 10 years ago # -
It's been a while but at last some good news...
One of the gates blocking the dropped kerbs onto Craigs Road has gone missing giving step free access to the East Craigs Path Network.
And more excitedly, Corstorphine Community Council have shown an interest in supporting converting the 6 Craigmount steps into a ramp.
Be good to have people showing their support for removing this impediment to active travel
Posted 7 years ago # -
Did you ever find out what the dropped kerb programme is?
Posted 7 years ago # -
No. I think @acsimpson had a tour round with one council officer but there has been several staff changes & I'm not sure much happened.
On a separate note, CEC have been cataloging all the crossing points across the city to better inform future work on dropped kerbs.
I have asked that they publish the results in due course so I/we can confirm they have all the bad ones on their list.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Right...
New Council Administration and new Councillors so I'm going to have another go at getting the Craigmount Steps sorted.
tweet sent and I have emailed my local Councillors as only 1 is on twitter.
Anyone else wants to join in please do
claire.bridgman@edinburgh.gov.uk
mark.a.brown@edinburgh.gov.uk
robert.aldridge@edinburgh.gov.ukPosted 7 years ago # -
Have you had much response from them other than Mark's tweet?
I've been emailing the replacement for the council officer I gave the tour too but I've not heard anything for a while. I'll chase again in a few weeks.
I did have a little success in that the crash barrier on Maybury roundabout was finally fixed after several years blocking the pavement but sadly the pavement in still rutted and covered in vegetation so only a partial success.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@ac - No obvious progress just yet. The responses I got were:
Cllr Brown - Acknowledged my email in his inbox by his tweet.
Cllr Aldridge - replied by email acknowledging it was frustrating and said he will keep trying...
Cllr Bridgman ('s office) - replied by email saying they would need to check who owned the land, but will ask the estates department.I have just chased Cllr Bridgman to see if they have a response...
Posted 7 years ago # -
Just had a response from the council via Cllr Bridgman.
"I am delighted to report that design work is underway on a proposed scheme to replace the steps with a ramp compliant with the Equalities Act 2010"
Obviously more hurdles to cross before it is built but great to see progress at last.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Great news HankChief.
I can't imagine that the design work is going to be too tricky. There might be some services which need moved deeper but otherwise it's presumably just a case of get a digger in and smooth the slope. It might need a few flat points to fit the guidelines but hopefully no hairpins.
Posted 7 years ago # -
The guidelines say you need steps as well as a ramp, so we'll have to see how they incorporate both. Plenty of space so should be straightforward.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I hadn't realised that you needed both. I can see why steps might be beneficial when a ramp is long and indirect but I'm struggling to work out why they would benefit anyone here unless the ramp ends up being steeper than I imagine it.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I'd imagine if the ground is icy then steps (with a handrail) feel safer than a long slope, but seems a bit dubious.
Posted 7 years ago #
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