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Strava Heatmap - A Typical Saturday

(70 posts)

  1. Dave
    Member

    But here's the thing - there aren't any Strava segments on NEPN that you can use as a scapegoat for that behaviour (all marked as hazardous). On the flipside, we now don't see personally identifiable speeds on a day-by-day basis, and efforts aren't moderated by segment evolution (example: it used to be that the 5way junction wasn't part of any popular segment - they flanked it, so it actually reduced the incentive to power through).

    The 2014 Strava record for NEPN - downhill! - is 22mph and 85th percentile is much lower - just about the design speed for such facilities. A clear link between antisocial riding and posting your speed online... where's the data?

    http://mccraw.co.uk/strava-vandals-hazardous-own-goal/

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. wingpig
    Member

    You forgot to mention "clear sight-lines".

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. gembo
    Member

    Some people behaved as instography describes, bombing along a shared use path, ploughing forward when the right of way is against them etc way before strava

    So strava merely gives a handle to hang this on. If numbers of high speed badly behaved cyclists have increased more than the overall increase in cycling recently then this would be suggestive of a strava effect

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. Dave
    Member

    @wingpig: Very true. Great sightlines on NEPN and the canal (obvious exception of the bridges!) and almost no junctions.

    Not very busy - this morning's commute I could count the number of people on foot on the canal on my fingers.

    Compare with streets full of parked cars for people to step out behind and tight bends blocked by buildings (but with people driving/cycling at 20-30mph).

    I've been meaning to write more about Strava for ages. I find it interesting because it's like the troubles of cycling in a microcosm - we do our thing and have a battle for understanding/acceptance from the wider public, then there's this clear parallel of cyclists laying into their own subculture (Strava).

    We expect motorists to respect our assessment of the risks when we cycle on the road, but perish the thought that we'd allow a sub-group of cyclists to exercise that same judgement?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. Dave
    Member

    @gembo: if there is a Strava effect, the removal of all these segments ought to have resulted in the removal of less considerate behaviour.

    I'm not sure how we'd measure it exactly, but Insto has provided anecdotal evidence that people are still people on NEPN at least, even though we can't attribute that to Strava at all.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    "the removal of all these segments ought to have resulted in the removal of less considerate behaviour"

    I'm not a Strava user (or trying to find a reason to blame it) so I'm asking a question for info -

    I understand that 'removing segments' means that there is no public 'league table, but does it mean that speed/time info is not recorded on individual devices?

    I assume some of the 'anti-social cycling' is due to 'I'm in a hurry/late' and others 'I want to get to work quicker than yesterday'.

    Obviously that could be checked with an analogue watch!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. DaveC
    Member

    @chdot. Yes but then we'd all need a chap dressed in a tracksuit with an analogue stopwatch jogging alongside. ... :0)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. DaveC
    Member

    I gave up on strava for kom's ages ago. I use it to log my yearly/monthly distances now and I've stopped on the commute (now just manually adding it) aa its a faff trying to get a signal on my old phone on York Place.

    I think people are just impatient as others have said already. Seams to be a british thing.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    @ DC

    Er no.

    Some people still use their wrists.

    Other chronometric devices and carrying systems are available.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    "its a faff trying to get a signal on my old phone on York Place"

    I blame the trams...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. fimm
    Member

    Dave, I think you and I have different understandings of what it means to flag a segment as hazardous. I don't mean that it is dangerous to cycle there. I mean that it it is an inappropriate place for there to be a segment.
    For example, there used to be a segment that started in the middle of the path between the golf courses on the way to Crammond (or rather, on the way back from Crammond) and went all the way to the top of the hill. That segment got flagged, and there is now a segment that starts on the road and goes up the hill.

    Almost certainly you are safer as a cyclist on the path than you are on the road (unruly dogs notwithstanding), but starting the segment on the road removes any inducement to cyclists to be a hazard to other path users (by, for example, hammering down the path in order to get a good run up to the ascent).

    There's one segment on the NEPN that I have never actually managed to ride my bike (Brompton) up!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. Instography
    Member

    Back in the days when I was more inclined to make the effort to get there faster than I did the day before I managed quite nicely with the little computer on the bike. What Strava has done, perversely, is change what used to require sustained effort over the whole journey into little momentaries - bursts of effort over a few yards.

    I suppose for observers, it's also a way to try to make some sense of otherwise completely stupid behaviour.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. stiltskin
    Member

    For example, there used to be a segment that started in the middle of the path between the golf courses on the way to Crammond (or rather, on the way back from Crammond) and went all the way to the top of the hill. That segment got flagged, and there is now a segment that starts on the road and goes up the hill.
    & I have to say I wondered why anyone bothered with reporting that one. People going down the hill are inevitably going faster, much faster than anyone trying to Strava up it. The Roseburn Park segment is a stupid one, but if you look, the guy who is KOM is clearly a right plonker, he seems to do a lot of cycle path segments at stupid speeds(or at least he used to. ) with amusing names like 'doggie slalom'. You can't blame Strava for that sort of idiocy.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. Instography
    Member

    I guess someone bothered flagging it because the path is narrow and the people hammering up from the low point inevitably won't be paying as much attention to the many people who hammer down as they might if they weren't in a race to be king of that particular incline.

    You can't blame Strava but that's just like saying guns (or cars) don't kill people. You can blame Strava for facilitating the idiocy. It used to be very difficult to get split times on segments now it's very easy.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. neddie
    Member

    Dave, I agree with your blog in as far as we shouldn't destroy data. Most people I know who use Strava record everything they do anyway (a means to an end). So I'm not sure how deleting dangerous segments would remove that data.

    Sure, there are some people who deliberately go out to a specific segment just to do it (a means in itself), but surely that is skewing the data about 'where people are really cycling' anyways.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. Dave
    Member

    My angle was more that as an increasing number of segments are removed, Strava loses its purpose. Segments are their USP (and also the only easy way to access data on riders without having to buy it).

    If someone just wants to track their own rides there are loads of sites that let you do it (which is fine of itself, in the sense that it doesn't discourage cycling per se - but it dilutes the data and makes it hard to access in aggregate).

    Are there bigger issues? Sure. But it would be nice if the CTC or other cycling bodies actually bothered to look at Strava data and refute NIMBYism rather than blindly going along with it, when the data shows that people aren't nailing along at all...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. Focus
    Member

    @ chdot

    " "the removal of all these segments ought to have resulted in the removal of less considerate behaviour"

    I'm not a Strava user (or trying to find a reason to blame it) so I'm asking a question for info -

    I understand that 'removing segments' means that there is no public 'league table, but does it mean that speed/time info is not recorded on individual devices?"

    To answer your question,any times recorded on removed segments will appear on the app on your device (phone tablet etc), and obviously on any 'independent' device (such as a standalone GPS) you are using, but when you log in to Strava you will only see your own time for that segment and can't compare it to anyone else's. It takes away the incentive to go faster than someone else but obviously not the incentive to beat your own time. But you don't need Strava to keep tabs on the latter anyway.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    @ Focus

    Thanks, that what I had presumed.

    "But you don't need Strava to keep tabs on the latter anyway."

    No but presumably there are enough 'open' segments for people competing/comparing to want to keep using Strava.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. gembo
    Member

    Is someone from IAMS who says they are a superior driver so can drive faster than others different from someone on strava who says they can tank it on shared use path because they are a superior cyclist?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. Dave
    Member

    So long as people don't exceed the speed limit, I don't really have a position on whether some drivers can safely go faster than others (though it seems silly to deny it given the existence of multi-millionaire racing drivers).

    I suppose you force me to admit on the same basis that there probably is a stratification of cycling abilities too. I find the worst (most dangerous) riding comes from a group of people who are relatively unremarkable in terms of speed, but have very poor anticipation or empathy for anyone else.

    The absence of clear legal constraints makes it harder to judge the moral standing of faster cyclists in one sentence. However I would probably say that exceeding the motor vehicle speed limit is morally bad, even though it's not illegal on a bike. The fact that it's not technically illegal is so incidental to the workings of the real world IOW.

    It's hard to say absolute things about NEPN. Every time I see a cyclist overtake a bus at a bus stop going quickly enough that they couldn't avoid a ped who crossed in front of the (stationary) bus, I think they're creating a much bigger risk than someone who rides at the same speed on NEPN which is (in rush hour) almost deserted.

    Yet the former is vehemently defended by most cyclists ("look out for filtering cyclists is in the Highway Code", etc) whereas we might accuse a rider taking *more* care on NEPN of "tanking it" and thinking they are "superior" (sorry for putting words in your mouth, I couldn't resist).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. Dave
    Member

    If you want a real moral crisis, try this:

    - We can probably all agree that a pedestrian on the towpath doesn't need to use a bell when they're going under the bridges.
    - But a lot of us would argue that a cyclist has an obligation to fit and use a bell in this scenario.
    - If you're cycling behind a pedestrian under a bridge on the canal, with no interest in overtaking them, do you have to sound your bell?
    - if not, why should cyclists ring a bell at all? What if you're pushing your bike, or running with it at the same speed as people who are mounted?

    These thoughts dominate my rides along the canal :)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. Focus
    Member

    @ chdot

    "No but presumably there are enough 'open' segments for people competing/comparing to want to keep using Strava."

    Absolutely. I am pleasantly surprised if I find I have a new PB (or in a solitary case when I had the best time for 2 days) after a ride but I'm not going out to do so specifically. I'm very certain a number of people do exactly that though (including a friend of mine, according to a club team-mate of his). I've got no problem with that if they are doing so responsibly and I doubt most reasonable people would.

    I presume Strava was set up as a training tool, rather than an ego-boosting platform to show off, but some riders have chosen to use it as the latter, unfortunately.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. Focus
    Member

    @ Dave

    I don't have a bell on any of my bikes but then the Highway Code considers the voice sufficient for a cyclist. Do I shout out when going under one of those bridges? No, but I do go very slowly and cautiously, especially if it's one of the bridges where you can't see so clearly beyond it as you approach. I'm not in the habit of using the canal at commuting times anyway so the risks are lower.

    Oh, and I don't race past stopped buses either ;-)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. allebong
    Member

    I find the worst (most dangerous) riding comes from a group of people who are relatively unremarkable in terms of speed, but have very poor anticipation or empathy for anyone else.

    Couldn't have said this better - seen this type of person on canal often enough, they might be doing a 'safe' 10mph or so, but they've absolutely no sense of consideration or awareness and keep that speed up while weaving within inches of kids/dogs/other bikes. Never ring a bell (if even fitted) at bridges, never yield when hearing a bell, and are inevitably truly clueless as to the havoc they can or are wreaking.

    Contrast that to someone taking it up to 15mph+ on the clear sections but slowing right down for bridges/passing people etc, and who is aware of everything going on.

    Of course, I've seen the odd person gunning it at 20mph+ constantly along there, and they give the impression of firstly knowing what they're doing in as far as they usually have a fancy bike, and appear to be handling it well, and secondly of being total twats, as they tend to whizz by you with almost no space given (if you swerved you'd both be in trouble) and then disappear at the same speed round the next blind bend. I'd be lying if I said I haven't enjoyed the odd blast into the tailwind driven 20mph+ region, though I certainly know when it's not appropriate.

    I reckon you could probably write a book or at least a decent research paper on bell use and reactions at the bridges. For me I've thought it comes down to peds being in theory more agile, so if they're going under the bridge and hear a bell they can retreat or lean back against a wall, whereas a bike is pretty much fully committed when they go under and can't take much in the way of evasive action that won't result in an unexpected swim. But now I've thought about the times I've been running along the canal and can pass under the bridges quickly enough that I'd be in trouble if an unexpected bike came through at the same time.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. Focus
    Member

    "Contrast that to someone taking it up to 15mph+ on the clear sections but slowing right down for bridges/passing people etc, and who is aware of everything going on."

    <Smug mode>That would be me then ;-),</smug mode>

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. gembo
    Member

    Having a bell is no indicator of moral superiority. Particularly if you ding ding it whilst travelling at speed under the canal bridges.

    Going too fast on the canal towpath can have consequences of a wet nature

    People who feel they are completely in control have possibly missed the important point that they may look out of control to others

    When I fancied myself as a swimmer if I worked very hard at infirmary st pool I could keep up with a guy over two lengths. I went flat out, he swam one at incredible pace but without seeming to expend any effort. The next one he took it easy. Allowing me to catch him if I went like the clappers. I know who looked better.

    My favourite athletes are the ones who make it look effortless.

    All this frantic speeding up , dodging dogs, ringin bells, arguing with other users, shining cheap Chinese lights searing others' retinas just ain't cool. Strava doubtless a symptom rather than a cause.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. fimm
    Member

    @Dave, to miss-quote you: "I find the worst (most dangerous) [road use] comes from a group of people who ... have very poor anticipation [of] or empathy for anyone else" might be rather true as well...?

    Segments are no longer the only way you can use Strava to challenge yourself. There are a bunch of challenges that go on, for example cycle a certain distance over the course of a month, or climb a certain number of meters, or run a certain distance in one go. I don't tend to go in for them, but I know my boyfriend does.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. amir
    Member

    To answer your question,any times recorded on removed segments will appear on the app on your device (phone tablet etc), and obviously on any 'independent' device (such as a standalone GPS) you are using"

    To clarify, standalone GPS devices will not (usually?) directly compare your times to those on the Strava database. What happens is that at the end of your ride, you update the GPS data to Strava, it's processed, then you can look at the new time compared to others on your phone or computer.

    In the early days, I did get quite a few KOMs but now, with the accumulation over time and the inevitable super-humans and cheats (they must be if they beat me?), I content myself with PBs. These are also rare for similar reasons, (cheating - wind behind, and moments of super-humanosity), especially in the winter. But I still continue to record. Strava is quite compatible with a traditional training program - laying down the miles in the winter then doing intervals to build up speed.

    BTW - I wonder what the longest segment is?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. amir
    Member

    There is also a social element - it's nice to see what others in your "circle" have been up to.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. earthowned
    Member

    For me one of the best side benefits of using Strava is that I have discovered loads of great cycling routes out in the countryside from looking at other peoples rides.

    I can tap into a collective knowledge to find and plan routes that I would never have discovered otherwise.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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