CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

New Cycle Route Signs

(179 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by HankChief
  • Latest reply from wingpig

  1. allebong
    Member

    Well that's the four most random words I've put into google in one go...so far I've read an abstract that's bringing back bad memories of reading dry wordy academic papers at uni, and I'm not sure if my own synapses are plastic enough to read about it further right now.

    Slightly related is the finding that lost people really do wander in circles - I've not yet become sufficiently lost anywhere for it to happen, but I absolutely have become disorientated about which direction I'm facing without the sun or other handy feature to keep me right.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. Simon Parker
    Member

    wingpig, I am happy to stand corrected. I googled "sense of direction for humans", and came across the following:

    Abstract:

    Thirty-five individuals were blindfolded and driven in a bus around a circuitous route for almost 20 km in an Australian country town. At four points they were asked, while still blindfolded and in the bus, to indicate the direction of the point of origin of the journey. When the mean vector and the homeward component of that vector were calculated from the estimates, participants proved to be able to sense direction reasonably successfully. Females tended to have a better sense of direction than males. Although adults generally had no greater direction finding ability than children, there was a slight tendency for young children to have higher errors in their estimates than was the case with older children. Ability to sense direction improved as the experiment progressed.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. condor2378
    Member

    I'm never lost.

    I am, however, far too often temporarily unsure of my position.

    Reminds me of learning to fly and was told by my instructor to set up the aircraft straight and level, and keep it thus with my eyes closed for 30 seconds just using other perception senses. Opened my eyes when told, expecting to see lovely horizon in the distance, not the ground rushing towards me at a rate of knots.

    tl:dr My senses put aircraft into nosedives.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. duncans
    Member

    New, and rather lonely shared use sign spotted last night to the NE side of Ratho Station.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "rather lonely shared use sign"

    Is it somewhere you/others 'know' is shared use?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. steveo
    Member

    I never realised dyspraxia can affect ones sense of direction, never a symptom I've encountered (I like to think)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. Morningsider
    Member

    I think this is a great example of how the www gives you access to almost unimaginable amounts of information, but not understanding. I could look at all the links to research on brain scans, navigation etc. However, I have no way of assessing whether they are reliable - they could all be wind-ups as far as I know (probably not - but they could well be poor quality, out of date, refuted by people who know what they are talking about and so on).

    Having said that - I'm willing to take a punt on the idea that you can tell anything by driving a small group of blindfolded people around in a bus once is remote.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. Simon Parker
    Member

    Steveo, I understand that I am playing right into Morningsider's hands here, but a lady complained on The Guardian website thus:

    "My sense of direction is poor to the point of being ridiculous. I have to do even the shortest journeys 10-20 times before I can remember the way, and I can easily get confused going from one room to another in a large house."

    Somebody replied:

    "I am no expert, but having worked with children with all kinds of special needs, I would suggest that you may have a very mild form of dyspraxia, a condition which normally implies an inability to plan complex actions, or form that kind of memory of a complex action which allows you to do it without thinking."

    The lady was complaining that she suffered from a poor sense of direction, whereas the likelihood is that she is in fact suffering from another (actually unrelated) condition.

    Morningsider: I realise that I am not as clever as some of the people on this forum, or as witty as others. I only went to university as a mature student, and then I dropped out after just one year. But I do try to educate myself, and I regard the internet as a valuable resource. I try to keep an open mind as well, and to be as positive as I can.

    If you had taken a moment to click the link to that abstract I quoted from, you will see that this research was in fact published, and is still available for $13.99.

    Take it easy, will you please.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. steveo
    Member

    Steveo, I understand that I am playing right into Morningsider's hands here, but a lady complained on The Guardian website thus:

    Wasn't a dig Simon, poor sense of direction is apparently (I had to check) a known symptom of dyspraxia, fortunately one I've not had any (additional) problems with.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. SRD
    Moderator

    Sadly, being published is no guarantee of quality. Even peer reviewed publication often falls short.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. Simon Parker
    Member

    I know it wasn't a dig, Steveo, and I certainly didn't intend for you to take it as such. Interesting to read what else you had to say.

    Simon

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. Simon Parker
    Member

    Sadly, being published is no guarantee of quality. Even peer reviewed publication often falls short.

    The results of the test are what they are. How to interpret them is perhaps the question.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    "The results of the test are what they are."

    Sadly, it doesn't work that way. Back in the day, when I worked in a very fact-oriented academic discipline, there was a set of peer-reviewed papers that everyone knew were faked. Not fake conclusions, but fake results.

    The authors were coralled in closed-door sesions and implored to retract, to no avail. There will be many more papers published by more competent fraudsters that have not been spotted. As a result,people tend to rank papers according to how much they respect the authors.

    Peer review is the best model currently used, but things went wrong in my view when replication was abandoned as prerequisite for publication. I do love the idea of building a second Large Hadron Collider to check the results from the first one.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. Morningsider
    Member

    Simon - I'm not quite sure how to respond. I certainly apologise if I have upset or annoyed you.

    You are rightly proud of having made it to university as a mature student. I know other people who have done this and it is real achievement to gain the necessary qualifications while working and dealing with adult life in general.

    I don't think anyone here, myself included, has ever questioned your intelligence or ability. My last post simply aimed to highlight that I know nothing about brain stuff. When I know nothing about a subject I have found, through painful experience, that the best thing to do is leave it to people who know what they are talking about. That's not to say that I, or anyone else, can't read up on a subject and form opinions about it. I simply try and steer clear of making claims on these subjects. If these claims involve rather sweeping statements about half the population then you would need to use a car jack to get me to open my mouth.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. neddie
    Member

    And as if by magic... a Canadian/American drivist stopped to asked me directions to the Forth Road Bridge...

    So I told him 'Just go straight...' ;)

    No actually, I told him the way, but I couldn't think of all the Costas/Maccy Ds en-route, nor the tall buildings, and in fact didn't tell him about any landmarks at all. I guess the FRB is a big enough landmark though, right?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. Simon Parker
    Member

    Thank you, Morningsider.

    It probably is my fault, actually. Maybe I do over-intellectualise these things.

    The big point I am trying to make (now) is that the assertion that women do not have a sense of direction - a stereotype which has been lazily endorsed by the Royal Institute of Navigation, no less - is wholly incorrect. Moreover, I am suggesting that in our day-to-day experiences, people's ability to navigate their way around a town or city is, to all intents and purposes, no different, man, woman or child.

    All this other stuff I've been talking about is probably irrelevant, and I withdraw it.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. Simon Parker
    Member

    Just to add ...

    When I know nothing about a subject I have found, through painful experience, that the best thing to do is leave it to people who know what they are talking about.

    "Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts."
    (Richard Feynman)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. amir
    Member

    "driving a small group of blindfolded people around in a bus"

    As a child, mystery tours held a strong allure. As an adult, I don't think I'd bother. However I did really like the idea of chdot's mystery tour of Edinburgh that he proposed some time ago.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. kaputnik
    Moderator

    However I did really like the idea of chdot's mystery tour of Edinburgh that he proposed some time ago.

    Bring wellies.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    "Bring wellies"

    It was a nice day when you and I did it.

    Or do you mean the next one in April?

    Did a strenuous one today - more later...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. Simon Parker
    Member

    I could look at all the links to research on brain scans, navigation etc. However, I have no way of assessing whether they are reliable ...

    Everybody has their prejudices, I guess - their preconceived ideas. And sometimes we float an idea, and then perhaps it either flies or it gets shot down. I don't think there is anything wrong with this. People need to be able to think out loud, and it's not possible to "be right" all of the time.

    When I first started discussing a sense of direction, my ideas were not at all fully formed in my mind. I began thus:

    So it seems that there are gender differences when it comes to navigation strategies. Men tend to rely on a sense of direction, while women tend to use landmarks.

    I wouldn't write that now. To the extent that this is true, it is true only in extreme situations (as I believe). Day-to-day, in normal circumstances, I would be astonished to learn that there is anything substantially different between the way that males and females navigate their way about the place.

    I mentioned a couple of experiments. One experiment measured brain activity using fMRI scanning. When asked to navigate their way through a (virtual) maze, females showed greater activity in the left and right pre-frontal regions, while males showed increased levels of activity in the hippocampus. There wasn’t a significant difference in journey times through the maze, however.

    In the other experiment - the magical mystery tour one - participants proved to be able to sense direction reasonably successfully. In this instance, though, women tended to have more accurate results than men.

    The conclusion that I draw from these two experiments, is not that the results were falsified - at least, I can't imagine why they would be - but that women use the intellectual part of their brain more than men do when faced with certain navigational challenges.

    Another experiment I reported as follows:

    In tests of ability to navigate virtual 3D environments (mazes), there wasn’t a significant difference between men and women in success levels as long as the landmarks were left in place. When these were removed, men showed an ability to keep their bearings and had a significantly higher degree of success (Sandstrom, Kaufman, & Huettel, 1998).

    From this it was concluded that:

    Men seem to have an inherent sense of bearings, an instinct of which way north lies;

    and that:

    Women navigate more by landmarks.

    I know it's not all that important, but it seems to me that these conclusions are far too simplistic, and probably don't have that much relevance to the everyday world.

    A few weeks ago, I went to see a friend whom I hadn't seen in a while. When I stepped out of my front door, I didn't immediately declare: "I'm lost!" I knew where I was, and I knew in which direction I would need to go in order to get to my friend's house.

    About halfway there, I couldn't remember if I needed to go straight on or turn right - it was dark by this stage and things always look different at night. Thinking about it now, I always seem to get confused at this point in the journey, but this time I guessed right, got to the end of the next street, and found what I was looking for: an elliptical-shaped traffic island. This was my landmark, and now that I had located it, I was able to recalibrate my internal GPS system, as it were, and carry on my journey.

    When it is said that women navigate more by landmarks, I want to say that this might in fact be a distinction without a difference, because I navigate by landmarks as well, and I reckon that most men do as well. When it is said that men follow their nose more than women, I want to say ... I don't know what I want to say, actually, but I think that all of this is dancing on the head of a pin, because day-to-day, I think people generally navigate their way around using the same strategies.

    Anyway, I am sorry to have laboured the point somewhat, but I hope to have reached the right conclusions in the end.

    To move on, where a sense of direction is innate (nature), the ability to read a map is learned (nurture).

    According to a survey of a thousand motorists, about 30% of the population are not able to read a map. Indeed, only about 1% of respondents knew enough to earn a cub scout map reader's badge.


    Polynesian navigation device showing directions of winds, waves and islands, c. 1904

    Simple diagrammatic maps are likely to be more accessible to more people (as well as being much more handily-sized). Added to which, colour-coding makes route-planning easier.


    Norwich cycle map

    I think it would be very good to be able to reach a consensus on the best way forward, and I say again, I want to work cooperatively on this. I hope not to give the impression that I have all of the answers, but I have been working on this for nearly fifteen years, so you can be assured that I have given it a lot of thought, at least.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. HankChief
    Member

    Back on topic...

    Found another funny on Broomhall Road. Where is Carrick Knowe??

    Where's Carrick Knowe?

    I previously mentioned that I use a different route across Gyle Park (me North of David Lloyd, them South) - to be fair the route they have chosen is all on tarmac, where as mine isn't.

    Today I went the sign posted route, but found that there isn't any signs for the turn off South Gyle Road into South Gyle Gardens - which is the key turning to make to stop you ending up in the Gyle.

    When you get to the park at the end of South Gyle Gardens there is a sign post for cycles and pedestrians directing them to South Gyle but along the platform of station. But you can't cycle along the platform and out of hours the gate is closed. I think it would have been better without the sign.

    Here is the 'dismount and use crossing' sign at the Jaguar garage on the A8 Glasgow Road.

    Glasgow Road

    You can see the toucan crossing. I still don't understand why you have to dismount to use it. You do have to go slow because there isn't a dropped kerb between here at the crossing. From the Broomhouse thread I guess they need a TRO to make the 15m of pavement shared use.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    "Where is Carrick Knowe??"

    Wot, u don't have a map?!

    West of the nice new tram tarmac from Balgreen.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    "Here is the 'dismount and use crossing' sign"

    SHOCKING

    "I guess they need a TRO to make the 15m of pavement shared use"

    Probably.

    And how long has this latest route/signing been at the planning stage?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. SRD
    Moderator

    hankchief - the turn you mention above as missing is EXACTLY where i went wrong trying to get to tram depot. I spent ages backtracking and trying to find it, and then eventually stumbled onto 'your' route.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. Kim
    Member

    This just show that no one on the Council really understands the concept of bicycle as transport, currently they have no change of achieving the Charter of Brussels target of 15% bicycle modal share by 2020. The key words here are modal share not commuter journeys, but share of all journeys. In Edinburgh this remains stuck at around 3% bicycle modal share.

    The current policy is very much on of Drive into Deadinburgh, it is also worth noting that Edinburgh have fallen from the top sport of the best places to live in the UK, and still has no hope of make it on the top 50 in the world.

    Edinburgh has the potential to be on in the top 10 places to live in the world (with all the economic advantages that that would bring), but lacks people with the vision to achieve this in position of influence on CEC.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. richardlmpearson
    Member

    I don't know where the Route 9 comes from. I'm pretty sure NCN route 9 is in Northern Ireland.

    http://www.sustrans.org.uk/ncn/map/route/route-9

    If it is a regional route number, should be in blue square as opposed to a red square.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I've noticed the signs above that Hankchief mentioned.

    I also noticed some small "John Muir Way" roundels on the lamp posts of the newly surfaced Pinkhill - Balgreen section of the Corstorphine Railway.

    Seemed a bit of an aspirational route to take (I imagined the E-W extension of JMW would be by way of the WoL then canal)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    "Seemed a bit of an aspirational route to take"

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6220

    'Opening' soon -

    http://www.johnmuirway.co.uk

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    A map.

    Shame Edinburgh doesn't 'allow' a more coastal route!

    http://edprom.wordpress.com/routes

    Posted 10 years ago #

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