CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Road repairs

(102 posts)

No tags yet.


1234

  1. chdot
    Admin

    "
    After a period of around five years many lanes were significantly losing conspicuity and were becoming visually very untidy. Any carriageway repairs, including around public utility works, required an additional process to reinstate the thermoplastic. When such repairs were carried out the visual effect was very patchy and unsatisfactory.

    "

    So 5 years of OK "conspicuity", then requires redoing(?)

    Seems perfectly reasonably if not done to better standard in first place.

    "
    Whole-life costs of chips were assessed to be lower than the cost of applied material.

    "

    Quite likely, but how much are we talking about in cash terms?

    And does it factor in increased accident costs, reduced number of people cycling and ( consequently) greater volume of traffic??

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. chdot
    Admin


    Random acts of road repair

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    "Is it possible to move the debate on from the colour of the road surface to how do we adopt the Sustainable Safety approach"

    Dunno, #thisISedinburgh

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. chdot
    Admin

    "
    c. The visual effect of red thermoplastic when new was considered to be unsatisfactory for widespread application in the world heritage site and conservation areas.

    "

    So we're back to that one(?)

    Red surfacing 'too loud'(?)

    Moving traffic and randomly parked, mixed coloured, metal boxes OK then??

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. Snowy
    Member

    If it's worth doing, it's worth doing properly.
    These red chips are just a waste of time for everyone concerned, from the guys who lay the tarmac to the road users who won't be able to see them.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    "unsatisfactory for widespread application in the world heritage site and conservation areas."

    OK for one of the poshest streets in the New Town five years ago though -

    http://cyclingedinburgh.info/2009/04/29/not-seeing-red

    Marchmont Road (video at bottom of above link) unchanged!

    So much for 'needs fixing after 5 years' so 'expensive'.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. SRD
    Moderator

    I don't like cycling on thermoplastic - especially when it is gouged out. But I also don't like the message it sends (or fails to send) when it is worn off.

    But this new policy seems quite random. Spokes has prepared a detailed paper on this, which they have been chasing the council to reply - now for 12 months.

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Spokes-colour-paper-v3-final.pdf

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. gembo
    Member

    If you look at the before and after pictures posted in the string about manahattan, the colour of the cycle lane seems immaterial your eyes are instead drawn to the little islands that prevent cars from using the bike lane,the planters creating more barriers and the quality of the Tarmac surface.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. fimm
    Member

    I don't mind the red chips, so long as the lane lines are good.
    The debate about red covering versus red chips is like discussing the colour of the deckchairs on the Titanic, though.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. paul.mag
    Member

    I agree with Fimm there is a newly laid section of road past the zoo with red chips and it's obvious that the road is a little bit red but the real thing that makes it obvious to car drivers that they maybe shouldn't be there is the really thick solid white line and signs. Obviously these won't help when the car hits you but then neither will any other colour of road surface regardless how it's laid.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. gembo
    Member

    Of course red chips in a bus lanes with cameras and fines for cars going in will be much better red chips than red chips in a cycle lane that cars drive in, park in, stop in etc

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    "The debate about red covering versus red chips is like discussing the colour of the deckchairs on the Titanic, though."

    Only if you think the deckchairs were predestined to drown and that CEC won't be changing its policies.

    I'm (almost) coming round to thinking that rather than 'bother' with the red stuff, the key thing is making sure the white lines/markings are refreshed more often.

    BUT..

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. paul.mag
    Member

    Surface the roads properly (in any colour you like) so that road users can travel in a straight line without having to move for uneven road surface.
    Separate the inside and outside lane with a thick white line, preferably a textured one that isn't too slippy in the wet. In single lanes mark a cycle lane in the same way.
    Put up sings warning about pinch points & in lane parking
    Educate drivers about what the white line means
    Prosecute drivers who ignore it

    It's obviously far more complex than that and costly but to my mind a more effective solution than colouring bits of the road differently and easier to maintain

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. neddie
    Member

    chdot +1

    Let's keep it simple. White & yellow lines are all that is needed. Much easier to maintain. Could be maintained with an automated machine, and therefore done more frequently.

    Yellow lines should be double. White line should be solid, preferably with something physical to separate.

    And then enforcement...

    Honestly, we shouldn't be spending masses of the precious cycle budget on red paint/red chips.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I'm (almost) coming round to thinking that rather than 'bother' with the red stuff, the key thing is making sure the white lines/markings are refreshed more often.

    Indeed. Well-painted white lines on black tarmac are very obvious. London has tried blowing millions on blue paint and let's not go where that got them.

    Of course, lines, chips, paint, whatever are never going to succeed if backed by an enforcing Police force as interested as Polis Scotchland is.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. acsimpson
    Member

    We wouldn't even need the white and yellow lines if they built a simple curb between the traffic and the bike lane.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. wishicouldgofaster
    Member

    Why bother? We all know they won't be maintained and will NEVER EVER be enforced.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. Radgeworks
    Member

    Armadillos

    I would very very much like to see these little beauties everywhere...

    Radgeworks

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. fimm
    Member

    @Radgeworks I wouldn't, not if Mad Cycle Lanes of Manchester's experience is anything to go by...

    http://madcyclelanesofmanchester.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/first-liverpool-st-armadillo-failure.html

    http://madcyclelanesofmanchester.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/middlewood-st-armadillos-take-two.html

    http://madcyclelanesofmanchester.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/armadillos-cones-and-now-bollards.html

    http://madcyclelanesofmanchester.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/black-bollards-yellow-bollards.html

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. Morningsider
    Member

    My only experience of mandatory cycle lanes in Edinburgh (cycle contraflow on Cannan Lane) is good. The lane has single/double yellows and no loading markings on the kerb. It is enforced by the parking attendants and I have never encountered a parked car in it.

    Mandatory lanes can work - they are low cost (simply paint and legal fees for the traffic regulation order) and enforcement can be undertaken by existing parking attendants. I agree fully segregated lanes are probably better - but why write-off mandatory lanes before they have really been tried. We could have miles and miles of these for the cost of a couple of hundred metres of segregated lanes - I'm sure drivers would get to know not to park in them, you rarely see anyone parked in a bus lane while it is in operation.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. crowriver
    Member

    cycle contraflow on Caanan Lane (Two a's in Caanan)

    Surface is shocking though, needs relaid!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    From a conversation -

    '

    There is some evidence that road facilities (e.g. bus lanes, ASLs, cycle lanes) and more self-enforcing if coloured. One of the main arguments against thermoplastic is that it wears away within 2-5 years (depending on location/who you talk to). However, cold applied materials such as MMA (http://www.stirlinglloyd.com/skidslip/Default.htm ) appear to last much longer which is why TfL are using it for the superhighways.

    '

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. neddie
    Member

    ...armadillo failure...

    Who have thought that [incompetent drivers of] lorries, buses & cars driving over something could damage it?

    Metal spikes would cause the damage in reverse - that might work...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. Focus
    Member

    The western Maidencraig Cres/ Queensferry Rd junctionwill be closed between 09:30 and 15:30 on Sunday 13th April for some sort of work. The signs are place at the junction itself and just past the other side of Thain House, so it would be nice to think the broken surface is going to be repaired, along with positive cycling infrastructure of some kind Including a sign to say the cycle path is up that way at last?).

    Or it could just be utilities work...

    Edit: And it is the latter :-(

    "Scottish Water

    Manhole repairs.
    Lane restrictions on Queensferry Road. Maidencraig Crescent (west end) closed at Queensferry Road.    "

    CEC Traffic Disruptions

    So, unless they actually make a good job of it, there could be an even bumpier surface as you enter the Crescent from Q'ferry Rd!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  25. Tulyar
    Member

    Worth noting that Thermoplastic road markings need to have added friction enhancement, as the material used raw has a skid resistance on a par with tar banding (like sheet ice when wet). The width limit on tar banding is 50mm because of the skid risk.

    The thickness limit of plain thermoplastic lines is 3mm above the road surface, unless a profiled line is being created, when 6mm is the limit

    Posted 11 years ago #

  26. paul.mag
    Member

    was just wondering if the utility companies are under any obligation to return the surface they have dug up to how it was or even "an acceptable standard". There is absolutely zero evidence of this on my commute but just wondered if that was due to the council not enforcing it or the utility company just not giving a s**t

    Posted 11 years ago #

  27. acsimpson
    Member

    if that was due to the council not enforcing it or the utility company just not giving a s**t

    I suspect it's the utility company just not giving a s**t because of the council not enforcing it.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  28. chdot
    Admin

    "just wondered if that was due to the council not enforcing it"

    CEC recently announced that it was going to appoint someone just to deal with utility/surface issues, so they probably haven't started yet!

    "or the utility company just not giving a s**t""

    'Surveys have shown' - that some are worse than others.

    Of course once the work is done most people forget who did it - and more importantly - which contractor filled the hole and sealed the surface. I hope CEC has the details.

    I suspect/assume that most of the work (the bit 'we' care about anyway) is not done by people directly employed by most/all? utility cos.

    There was an exchange on Twitter recently where someone complained about the result of the Scottish Water work on Duke Street.

    SW sent the contractor out who 'couldn't find anything'. Complainer posted a pic showing that surface was 'not flat' and SW agreed to send someone again.

    If there has been an update I have missed it!

    There is 'evidence' that some people do a better job than others when you see random bits of new coloured surface in bike and bus lanes where contractors have done their best to 'restore like it should be' - most just use black tar!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  29. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Utilities works should be accompanied by a nearby small, semi-permanent sign that says somethign along the lines of "these works were undertaken by <contractor X> for <company Y> on <date Z>. Please report any defects to <company Y>"

    When they come to remove their sign 6 months later they can inspect the surface and do some sort of sign-off as it being acceptable.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  30. neddie
    Member

    Anyone noticed the 'Cyclist Dismount' sign at the pedestrian crossing on Melville Dr and Jawbone Walk?

    Why?

    There is no need to dismount for anything if you are on the road and the ped X is not a Toucan!

    Posted 11 years ago #

RSS feed for this topic

1234

Reply »

You must log in to post.


Video embedded using Easy Video Embed plugin