Okay, I've obviously missed something here. At the princes street end I'm pretty sure he sign says 'busses, trams and cycles' doesn't it? So we here are cyclists supposed to go after shandwick place?
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CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Questions/Support/Help
West mainland street?
(28 posts)- Started 10 years ago by SRD
- Latest reply from PS
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Posted 10 years ago #
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Torphichen St-Torphichen Place-Morrison St-as you were.
Posted 10 years ago # -
The sign says trams + buses. No mention of cycles.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Why????
Posted 10 years ago # -
Incidentally, has the eastbound light phasing at West Maitland changed? I was waiting at Palmerston Place and it looked like there was traffic going straight on and turning right down Torphichen at the same time. Although the straight-on traffic may have been some RLJs
Posted 10 years ago # -
Did the straight-on used to cut out when the right-turn went on? I last went that way last week and there was at least thirty seconds of overlap when the right-turn went green.
Perhaps, due to W. Maitland having previously been entirely eastbound, the single westbound tram-channel was judged to be too vulnerable to the risk of taxis sneaking along it then deciding that it was a good place to set down or pick up if cyclists were allowed along it too, due to the previous general assumption that any taxi/bus/cycle exemption applies to all three, except where the two big ones won't fit or on weird NO WE MEAN IT JUST BUSES bits like Cutlins Road and Hope St.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Yes, light phasing eastbound has changed. Previously, straight on went red before right turn went green, but now the right filter turns green while straight on still green. No RLJing required.
Posted 10 years ago # -
IIRC the signage to WMS westbound is Trams and Local buses only. Is that too vague to be enforceable?
Presumably that's local bus services buses and not Edinburgh based buses?
Posted 10 years ago # -
It's a bit silly - east West maitland street going west upto Torphichen Street/Palmerston place - everything goes. West West Maitland street going west to Haymarket, Trams and Local Buses only.
Obviously though, west West Maitland Street going east to east West Maitland street is still open to all.
Hope that clears it up.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Hope that clears it up. "
clear as the crud that is already occluding the edges of NMW...
Posted 10 years ago # -
@EddieD That is complex! On a second reading, I subvocalised your explanation in the voice of Sir Humphrey :)
Oddly this made things easier to understand.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Here's the Traffic Regulation Order diagram (top diagram):
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/10254/torphichen_street_to_shandwick_place
Only local buses and trams from West Maitland St to Haymarket. Bikes were not allowed this way before, having to go round the way wingpig describes.
The term "Local buses" effectively covers any a stopping service available to the general public, where the route is registered with the Traffic Commissioner, which is eligible for Bus Service Operators Grant - effectively "No coaches".
Posted 10 years ago # -
Oddly if you go straight on at West Maitland St going west I reckon it has less danger for cyclists. Going round by Torphicen St takes longer and puts you onto a cycle lane that has a good few more risks than the tram.
Posted 10 years ago # -
- effectively "No coaches".
And right on cue a Highlands Explorer coach went down there this morning!
Posted 10 years ago # -
LaidBack suggests that cyclists going westbound on WMS is "safer" than the legal way via Morrison Street.
Anyone got an opinion on why it is "safer" to ride next to Tram tracks (where there is no cycle path and it is not allowed) whereas other forum users have said that Trams at Haymarket Yards which share a road with cycle path of a national cycle route are "lethal" and an "accident waiting to happen"
Posted 10 years ago # -
...because West Maitland St is a straight line and you don't have to cross the tram tracks, nothing can park there, therefore the tracks don't not pose a hazard to a cyclist. Riding alongside a tram track is only a problem if you have to cross it.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@ stiltskin
+1
And - in Haymarket Yards you do have cross the tracks.
Posted 10 years ago # -
The irony is that WMS has been made extremely attractive to cyclists who are concerned about safety because you don't have to worry about taxis or coaches cutting you up, let alone the British Motorist. I predict mass cycling down there unless they station one of her majesty's finest on the corner permanently...
Anyone got an opinion on why it is "safer" to ride next to Tram tracks (where there is no cycle path and it is not allowed)
If someone at the council forgot to add the bike symbol to a sign, so technically cycling is not allowed, why would that make any difference to which route is actually safer?
Even if the omission of cycles was deliberate, it's extremely unlikely that safety was the motivating factor, because as we've seen everywhere else in the city centre there's been no hesitation to blow millions on really unsafe road layouts.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Perhaps all the police / council wardens who are not enforcing the taxis which can't or won't follow the signs, lines and regulations around Haymarket can also not enforce the use of West Maitland Street by cyclists.
Posted 10 years ago # -
It is of course less risky as it has fewer turns and intersections with conflicting traffic. Having said that i wouldn't enter with a late running tram at my back!
The argument here reminds me though of the arguments made by the 'drive as you please, assess your own risks' case made by some motoring groups.
The difference is that the places designated for cycling have not been researched by other cyclists with any consistent view on suitability or safety. (The WAR steps and badly laid out ramps which have cycling allowed come to mind)
Roads on the other hand are designed for and by drivers generally. We build a lot of them and improvement are often made year on year.
In the grand scheme of the tram project every inch of the route has been fought over and I reckon the decision to 'ban' cyclists from this 1% of the route length is purely arbitrary. It was basically 'our turn' to have some restriction placed as the tram interacts with buses, bin trucks and the odd badly parked BMW.
As the sign is clearly there anyone ignoring it can expect any legal user of this sacred tarmac shortcut to not be pleased! The fact that it could be more direct and safer than mixing with three lanes of traffic on a longer route is not something that would ever enter the debate.
I do though support Spokes plans to look at better ways through Haymarket.
Posted 10 years ago # -
A Response from Traffic Officer at the City Council to my queries about cycling on W Maitland St. Still doesn't answer whether cycling westbound on that route was
a) ever intended within tram plans
b) ever allowed at any point (this century!)
c) how ban decision was reached
d) date ban decision was made...all questions I asked. I've asked again. Anyone know when the 'revised TRO' came into effect?
Here's the response:
WEST MAITLAND STREET
Thank you for your e-mail of 17 June 2014 with comments regarding cycle access on the above street.
Prior to the tram works, West Maitland Street was one-way only in the eastbound direction for all vehicles, including cyclists. As part of the tram project, a Traffic
Regulation Order (TRO) came into operation on 22 July 2013 to permit buses and trams to travel in the westbound direction. The ‘bus and trams only’ signs were installed at the time that the revised TRO came into operation. Consideration was given to also permit cyclists to use this route but this was ruled out due to concerns over the interaction of cyclists with trams on this section.
I hope that you find our response helpful.
Yours sincerely etc.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Sounds like it's buses and trams as they only asked for buses and trams when they filled in the TRO application.
When I looked up old entries in a few threads for this a couple of months ago the relevant TRO had disappeared from the relevant Downloads section on the council website. Can't find it on tellmescotland either.
Hmmm. This says:
"West End, Shandwick Place (Refer to TRO Drawings ULE 90130-01-TMG-00022-
24)
• In Shandwick Place the tram will share the carriageway with bus, taxi and cycles only. This is necessary to allow safe and efficient bus and tram operations within the space constricted area and maintain the existing pedestrian footways. The tram will run on-street shared with general traffic west of Manor Place to Torphichen Street. A bus and tram lane will operate in both directions on sections of West Maitland Street. Access to and from Queensferry Street will be maintained for bus, taxi and cycle."From Appendix 1 of this:
"7.5
An objection has been raised to the banning of private vehicles from Princes Street (westbound at night), Shandwick Place, Constitution Street, St Andrew Square, West Maitland Street and the road outside Ocean Terminal.
The response confirms that all of the cited general traffic bans are required for operational and/or safety reasons. It is recommended that no further action be taken as a result of this objection and that the Order be made as advertised.
No action"Posted 10 years ago # -
Yes, I was interested that the TRO had disappeared from the link given above (by Morningsider.)
The section you highlight is interesting in that it does seem to imply that the situation in W Maitland St was intended (at Feb 2010) to be the same going in both directions.Will we have to wait for a casualty on Torphichen Place before the issue if cycling westbound down WMS is reconsidered?
Posted 10 years ago # -
I see that on Thursday/Friday new signs were put up to try disuade cyclists from illegally going down West Maitland Street: https://goo.gl/photos/d3DgukwTNopRCUES7. Hmmm...
I must echo the other comments further up the thread: West Maitland Street seems like a safer and more direct way to access Haymarket Terrace than the cycle lanes on Torphichen Place and Morrison Street which, with traffic on both sides, are pretty intimidating for new cyclists. Yes, there are tram tracks, but at least you have a clear view of them and they don't come as a surprise unlike when you come from Morrison Street into the Haymarket junction.
I also wonder if allowing cycling via West Maitland Street could open up a nicer route to Dalry Road with just a little work on the traffic island. Allowing cycling on the traffic island could also provide a link with Grosvenor Street and the east-west cycleway: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1g8AEPQiKEKZMbv0WhbOt0EMT6p1Zb3suhjHqxcpatJM/edit?usp=sharing. All without the council needing to seriously remodel the junction and alter all the light timings.
Posted 8 years ago # -
To get to Haymarket Terrace the 'proper' way you have to hold primary in a centre lane all the way from Torphican St
Forget it
Posted 8 years ago # -
So instead of promoting the safest route which is often devoid of buses or trams they prefer cyclists to sandwich themselves in the middle of Torphicen St?
I can't see the signs but these will appeal to the 'you're breaking the law so I'll have to use my vehicle as a weapon' faction.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Given the ambivalence of the cooncil to allowing / obliging cyclists to cycle parallel to and across the entire rest of the on-road tram rails, I've never got why West Maitland should be a different case.
The official alternative route is properly intimidating and dangerous.
Posted 8 years ago # -
One to mention in responses to the Roseburn to Leith consultation?
I raised it with one of the Council guys as a more direct alternative for the Grosvenor/Lansdowne Cr twisty-turny route. Even if Shandwick Place was a no-no then you could always get as far as Coates Cr and turn up Walker St to the exemplar segregated lanes on Melville St. IIRC his response was that it was possibly okay for confident cyclists, but not good for others.
TBH when I sat on a bus going along there a few days later I could see his point - there is a lot of sudden lane changing and buses pulling in and out on Atholl Place.
Posted 8 years ago #
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