CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Tactiles

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  1. tk
    Member

    As these were mentioned on the Leith Links discussion I thought this letter may be of interest. In the wet weather I'd been finding the tactiles on the Meadows particularly slippy and found the back wheel had slid out - particularly when cornering on the West End towards the crossing. I don't like the things in general with skinny slick tyres but at least Edinburgh don't install the long lengths as recommended in the guidance on their use.

    Here is the response I got from the council

    "NORTH MEADOW WALK – TACTILE PAVING
    Thank you for your e-mail of 31 March 2014 with your comments and concerns on the above subject.
    The tactile paving has been installed to assist visually impaired pedestrians and is in accordance with national guidance. The reduction of cyclists’ speeds was not an intention of the paving although it can help to highlight the transition to unsegregated areas shared with pedestrians where more consideration is needed.
    We have reviewed the location you raised concerns about and we consider that the tactile paving at the western end of North Meadow Walk (where this joins the path to the signalised cycle/pedestrian crossing of Melville Drive) could potentially be an issue for cyclists. The problem appears to result from cyclists crossing the paving at an angle as they exit the link path to the signalised crossing.
    We shall review the options to improve this situation - it is likely this will involve increasing the distance between the tactile paving and the path spur. This will allow cyclists to straighten up their bikes before crossing the paving. We plan to have any improvements completed by late summer. Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention.
    I hope that you find our response helpful."

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. gembo
    Member

    Reasonable correspondence, hopefully leading to relocation of the tactile paving stones.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    When those things first went in I was convinced that they'd got the orientation wrong by 90°.

    You get an odd tramlining effect that, whilst not dangerous, is off-putting. All in favour of rumble strips for those with imperfect sight, but these seemed weird.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. SRD
    Moderator

    oh that's brilliant. well done!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "We have reviewed the location you raised concerns about and we consider that the tactile paving at the western end of North Meadow Walk (where this joins the path to the signalised cycle/pedestrian crossing of Melville Drive) could potentially be an issue for cyclists."

    Very good!

    tk & CEC!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. Tulyar
    Member

    Chdot that picture is of the wrong type of tactile paving for cycle routes. Extensive testing delivered the 'correct' design but sadly (because no cyclists were consulted and no wheelchair or pram users either I suspect) the WRONG orientation was selected for both pedestrian and cycle sides - thus wheelchair users and prams move over to the cycle side because they prefer this orientation.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    "that picture is of the wrong type of tactile paving for cycle routes"

    It's not a cycle route as such - shared use ramp on a bridge that also has steps.

    I have no idea what a blind/poorly sighted person would 'understand' if they came across them.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. neddie
    Member

    What a blind person would 'understand' from it is the same as anyone else - that CEC have created confusing & useless infrastructure that wastes the active travel budget

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The Claimant, Mr Mohammed Mohsan Ali, lives in the London Borough of Newham ("Newham"). He is visually impaired. He is both a member and volunteer at the Royal National Institute of Blind People ("the RNIB"). He challenges by judicial review Newham's new local guidance ("the guidance") that is intended to be used in the design and specification of tactile paving; and he seeks, inter alia, a declaration that Newham has acted unlawfully in adopting the guidance and an order to quash the guidance.

    "

    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/2970.html

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Interesting, and well done to Judge Parker.

    General awareness of the duty does not amount to the necessary due regard, being a "substantial rigorous and open-minded approach"

    I am not impressed by the argument that other London boroughs are also departing substantially from the national guidance...

    I find that Newham did not have a lawful justification for departing from the relevant national guidance...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Gavin Corbett (@gavincorbett)
    17/11/2016, 11:06
    I'm interested @SpokesLothian @CyclingEdin in whether any cyclists have slipped here halfway up Middle Meadow Walk

    http://pic.twitter.com/Q7eWFFxTUL

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  13. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    The bike tramline-squirms every time I go over that downhill. Stright line, so not really an issue but not nice neither.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  14. Rosie
    Member

    @chdot
    Someone had an accident with tactiles on MMW & we had an exchange on Spokes Facebook. She said she'd notify Gavin Corbett who in turn is asking Spokes. It would be great if there was some pressure to get these vertical slithery tyre traps changed. Even diagonal would be better than vertical.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    "Even diagonal would be better than vertical"

    ?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. Rosie
    Member

    You have horizontal strips for the peds, diagonal for the cycles. Is that an insane idea?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  17. steveo
    Member

    Didn't Morningsider do some research and conclude CEC was doing it wrong?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  18. Frenchy
    Member

    I always either go along the gap between the tactiles, or onto the pedestrian side.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  19. wingpig
    Member

    The difference in forcible wheel-serving of the different depths/patterns of tactile is nicely noticeable on the multiple clusters on the newish Leith Links path. Some consistently deflect my (28mm) tyres and the wingpiglet's scooter-wheels, some don't. Ever since his first tactile-derived unplanned dismount all of them cause the wingpiglet to slow down to 1mph, irrespective of the amount of rain/leaf-slime.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  20. Roibeard
    Member

    You have horizontal strips for the peds, diagonal for the cycles.

    The issue with parallel strips is "tramlining", and hitting the strip as near to perpendicular as possible avoids this, although then you've a rumble strip.

    I suspect that (as with real tramlines), anything less than perpendicular increases the changes of slipping, although will result in rumbling.

    So although diagonal might be somewhat less slippy than parallel (depending on the pitch), I suspect it will be as rumbly as horizontal strips so perhaps not a useful tradeoff?

    Robert

    Posted 8 years ago #
  21. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Maybe it's my mountainbiking background and being happy to let my bike squirm around underneath me, but so far I've never had a problem traversing the tactiles, even with spiky tyres or leaf mulch.

    Personally, I feel safer crossing on the cyclists' side, because the tramlining generally stops once my tyres reach the next raised bar. Crossing on the pedestrian 'rumble strip' side presents no obstruction to my tyre sliding out completely should it want to.

    </anecdote>

    Tactile paving is not designed to be nice for cyclists. It's designed to send specific information to people who need it.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    "Tactile paving is not designed to be nice for cyclists"

    No, but, is it designed to be nasty?

    If not, is that careless or negligent?

    "It's designed to send specific information to people who need it."

    If you mean 'so that people with visual impairments know where there's a cycle path' then fine - but that only really works with some degree of universality and consistency.

    The installation on MMW by George Square seems to be more for general pedestrians and (more?) for cyclists to be aware/considerate.

    So primarily (I would suggest) to slow bikes down.

    If so, are the tactiles suitable or the best option?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  23. Rosie
    Member

    Gavin Corbett is being tweeted at as thick & fast as a leaf falls in November...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    That's 'cyclists' on Twitter for you!

    Plus a wheelchair pusher who doesn't like the bumpy orientation on the pedestrian side.

    Really 'not fit for purpose'.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  25. Colonies_Chris
    Member

    @Rosie - possibly someone I know, Suzanne, who came off on those wet leaf-covered tactiles on MMW this time last year? I'll contact her to see if she has tweeted GC.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Suzanne Senior (@wanderer49)
    17/11/2016, 13:53
    @gavincorbett @SpokesLothian @CyclingEdin As discussed, I had a bad cycle accident on these last year and still have a shoulder injury.

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  27. Bigjack
    Member

    Whoever came up with the idea that the grooves are in the direction of travel on the cycle side and across the line of travel for the pedestrians clearly doesn't ride a bike.
    It would be interesting to learn what the real experts at the Transport Laboratory have to say about it by way of logical explanation and if they would ever agree that the grooves in direction of travel for cyclists are SAFER for cyclists.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  28. Snowy
    Member

    >Whoever came up with the idea that the grooves are in the direction of travel on the cycle side and across the line of travel for the pedestrians clearly doesn't ride a bike.

    Or, indeed, have to attempt to manoeuvre a pram with a sleeping child over the rumble strips on the ped side.

    My vote would be with the direction of travel on the ped side, and perpendicular rumble-strip stylee on the bike side.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  29. Arellcat
    Moderator

    by way of logical explanation

    The TRL has stated before that the reason was because longitudinal bars provided a smoother surface for cyclists (or that lateral bars provided a disincentive). The original TRL research, that Tulyar believes has conveniently gone missing, probably did take a view on traction in adverse conditions.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  30. Rosie
    Member

    @GavinCorbett is on twitter about this so worth tweeting at him.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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