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20 mph - consultation coming soon

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  1. SRD
    Moderator

    Been at transport forum (http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20016/travel_and_parking/658/transport_forum)

    One item that will be of interest is that a 20 mph proposal will go to transport cttee soon, and out for consultation after that.

    One interesting fact that came up - Tony Kenmuir of central taxis said that they had conducted an experiement with 30 taxis, leaving their offices on Gilmore place, and taking a set route up the mound, around through morningside, at different times of day. 15 had to drive at no more than 20mph and 15 had to drive at 30 mph whenever they could.

    They found no difference in duration of journey. And reduced fuel consumption when at 20mph.

    Another commonly raised concern (debated here previously) is particulates/pollution. Phil noble from the council says that evidence of higher particulate tends to be studies where they're just studying engines going constantly. But studies from London, where they tested roads with controls (ie similar roads at 20 and at 30) and actual operating cars, showed a very small diminution of particulates at 20mph, and possibly small increase of carbon monoxide. But generally little to no difference.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  2. Tulyar
    Member

    Presume you've seen the papers and results from Cycle Logistics second annual meeting?.

    DHL has replaced 33 vans with 33 cargo bikes carrying out same deliveries, in NL, and cut costs by €430,000 in a year, as well as reducing CO2 emissions by 153 Tonnes.

    In London a Cargo bike/small electric vehicle operator is doing over 3000 drops/day for ONE office supplies company. They also collect and deliver tenancy papers for a major landlord.

    Edinburgh has the basic core business opportunities for cycle logistics to make a huge difference.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  3. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Rod King ‏@20splentyforus 2m

    Across UK police are taking a more active role on enforcement of 20mph limits. Watch out for breaking news tomorrow in Edinburgh.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  4. gibbo
    Member

    Watch out for breaking news tomorrow in Edinburgh.

    Police Scotland is going to announce that they've just learned there are laws governing driving.

    "We knew there were laws that governed road use, but we thought they only applied to cyclists. That's why we've had repeaded crackdowns on cyclists, but done nothing about drivers", the PS head honcho will say.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  5. kaputnik
    Moderator

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/police-to-enforce-city-20mph-zones-for-first-time-1-3420698

    You read it here first (Courtesy, Gibbo)

    Posted 10 years ago #

  6. amir
    Member

    "Neil Greig, from the Institute of Advanced Motorists, said the action had to be properly targeted: “If the police are going to do this they have to link it to accidents and injuries. It’s pointless enforcing on a street with no history of car accidents on it. It needs to be properly targeted. If they do that it makes some sense.”"

    He doesn't get it, does he.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  7. gibbo
    Member

    City transport leader Lesley Hinds hailed the move and said it would “send a clear message” to motorists who flout the law.

    This is why I despise politicians. She doesn't admit there's been a very clear message for motorists until now: do what you want.

    Which means all the benefits she's now listing (of having the speed limit enforced) can be flipped round and turned into all the problems her lack of action has caused.

    What a shameless individual.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  8. gibbo
    Member

    He doesn't get it, does he.

    Maybe his idea is to combine this retrospective policing with a time machine that'll enable officers to go back in time and prevent those past accidents?

    What's his next idea? That speed limits should only apply to drivers who have, in the past, caused accidents by speeding?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  9. Focus
    Member

    @ amir

    "He doesn't get it, does he? "

    Presumably unaware of the phrase, "prevention is better than a cure" :-(

    He's also effectively saying drivers should be allowed to speed where accidents haven't (yet) happened.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  10. SRD
    Moderator

    also doesn't get subjective safety - that people won't walk, cycle until they feel comfortable and safe

    Posted 10 years ago #

  11. chdot
    Admin

    "people won't walk, cycle until they feel comfortable and safe"

    Indeed.

    I hope the police are beginning to understand that too.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  12. crowriver
    Member

    Lots of anti-cyclist and anti-pedestrian comments on that article, I see. Even some attacking children.

    Bitter Ukippers perchance?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  13. wingpig
    Member

    'heyheyhey
    2:09 PM on 23/05/2014

    Good to see Neil Greig from the "Advanced" Institute of Motorists saying that drivers should be allowed to break the law.

    Will we get a spokesman from the Advanced Institute of Tree Surgeons to say it's OK if a tree surgeon "accidentally" causes a tree to fall on someone?

    Is it OK now to run around wielding a running chainsaw? We only need to prevent people from running around with chainsaws if there's already been a death in the area, right?'

    Snrk.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  14. Instography
    Member

    “If the police are going to do this they have to link it to accidents and injuries. It’s pointless enforcing on a street with no history of car accidents on it. It needs to be properly targeted. If they do that it makes some sense.”

    If the police need to develop a hierarchy of where they would prioritise their resources then a focus on streets with a history of accidents would make sense but generally if speed is a factor in accident causation it makes to target all speeding and to enforce speed limits more or less randomly as a preventative measure.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  15. cb
    Member

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/council-unveils-city-centre-20mph-speed-limit-plan-1-3424899

    With map. A fairly big swathe of 20mph around the centre. The 40mph WAR limit stands out (although it drops to 30 then 20 as it heads east).

    Posted 10 years ago #

  16. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Unless I'm very much mistaken, that map shows the Holyrood Park low roads as 30mph. Just a mistake, I trust...

    If so, I have a depressingly complete lack of surprise that CEC is unaware of the current limits.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  17. crowriver
    Member

    No, it shows them as existing 20mph and 30mph.

    IMO they should all be 20mph, and that will form part of my submission to any consultation.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  18. acsimpson
    Member

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-27587130

    Mr Best added: "Speed limits are a limit. They are not a target to beat."

    There must be some mistake or does everyone at the iAM not sing of the same hymn sheet?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  19. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Are you sure, crowriver? I see the roads through the park as orange lines (30mph streets).

    Posted 10 years ago #

  20. SRD
    Moderator

    these docs - and a higher res map - are supposed to be on council website, but they're not. i've been assured that they'll be up later today.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  21. crowriver
    Member

    Orange = existing 30mph
    Grey = existing 20mph

    Low road between the Palace and eastern exit is currently 20mph (though widely ignored). So map reflects the existing situation in Holyrood Park, though I will argue for change.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  22. wangi
    Member

    I'd have though the detail would have been at http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/meetings/meeting/3363/transport_and_environment_committee#minutesDateSearchWidget - but can't see it for looking... Although there is info on the 7% cycle budget.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  23. PS
    Member

    On the face of it (on the basis of the map in the Evening News article), that looks really good. Especially the city centre.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  24. SRD
    Moderator

    It's should be all residential and shopping roads. Which - say on morningside road - roughly translates into tenemented areas.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  25. gembo
    Member

    Everyone should push for this, the commenters beneath the original article would exceed apoplexy if it came to pass after public consultation.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  26. ianmb
    Member

    It looks like the existing 40mph limit on Comiston Road will be retained which is nuts. It's a busy road with parked cars on one side or two sides and/or a bus lane. All filters to one lane at Buckstone Shops yet traffic can do 40mph here. I'll be making a similar point to the Council shortly.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  27. SRD
    Moderator

    Ianmb - I'm sure you're right. Please write to your councillors and community councillors about this. This is just a proposal - it's for your neighbourhood to set out the details.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  28. ianmb
    Member

    SRD - already sent off the email tonight. The picture from Google Maps linked to below shows exactly why this road shouldn't be a 40mph limit with cars double parked and blocking a poor cycle lane.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.908115,-3.208896,3a,75y,338.6h,57.67t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sta1HPd_eXaZT0OWH2KaLCw!2e0

    Posted 10 years ago #

  29. fimm
    Member

    So who should we be commenting to? Is there going to be a formal process for this, or will it just be a matter of people who find out about it sending off emails in green ink?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  30. PS
    Member

    If the Council has the courage of its convictions (as set out in its draft street design guidance), then any roads like Comiston Road (wide 40 mph jobs) must have fully segregated cyclelanes added, wide enough to allow cyclist overtaking. I'd be perfectly happy for them to be 40mph roads in that case.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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