CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

George Street Improvements

(1175 posts)

  1. bdellar
    Member

    I tried the George Street path this afternoon, and I was fairly underwhelmed.

    Three junctions, with three different way of crossing them (lights that take ages then straight across; a roundabout where you *don't* go straight ahead like I did, but instead change sides; a roundabout where go round, NOT straight ahead).

    I saw two can using the bike path as a rat run from Charlotte Square.

    But the worst part was the exiting. I have NO idea what you're supposed to do at the ends. I just sort of went over the pedestrian bit, back onto the road, by which point I was in front of any lights, and carried on.

    I would love to ride it with one of the designers to see what is supposed to happen.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    "I would love to ride it with one of the designers to see what is supposed to happen."

    Sounds like a good idea!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. fimm
    Member

    Boyfriend has used it a few times this week. He also reports cars in the bike lanes. He also commented that he'd noticed a cyclist who stuck to the road part rather than going onto the bike lane; boyfriend rather smugly reported that the lights had canged in his favour and the other cyclist had had to wait.

    Does the bike lane give access to loading? Or should there never be any vehicle in it at any time?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. wingpig
    Member

    Bike lane gives access to loading. And deliveries. And vans associated with dismantling of the decked seating areas. And café/bar/restaurant owners/managers.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "

    For many years the city has chucked good ideas on to the streets to see if they work and become great ideas. They are, as a rule, well thought out before they are trialled and most of them end up permanent.

    "

    http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/oct/16/copenhagen-cycling-innovation-lycra-louts-green-wave-bike-bridges

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. Ed1
    Member

    George street bike lane seems over run by cars 3 cars when entered coming in the other direction and another car turning on at the end. Never seem so many cars on it before I think it's people parking In the loading areas I sore the traffic warden speaking to someone in a jeep and another jeep has ticket on it good to see traffic warden doing something useful keeping cars out the bike lane.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. LaidBack
    Member

    Cars do seem to be tempted to use them - perhaps because they have yet to attract many cyclists (due to poor connections?).

    One other odd thing is that the pedestrian crossing at Hanover St is not aligned to George St. So whilst cyclists can go directly accross confusingly on the 'wrong' side of the statue, mere pedestrians have to walk round the fenced off road. Surely all bike and pedestrian traffic should be encouraged with direct routes? Plenty of people walking despite the weather and detours. No cyclists on George St but several on Princes St.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. ARobComp
    Member

    Stood chatting to a friend of mine at the edge of the bike lane by Assembly rooms and counted 3 cars either entering or trying to come all the way through the bike lane. One honked at us to get "out of their way" as they couldn't squeeze between a roadsign that was advertising some roadworks, and ourselves without having to make a minor adjustment to the straight ahead route he wanted (friend had a bike trailer). I pointed out it was a cycle lane to which I got "Yeah I know but you don't have to be a f***ing dick about it"

    I think he was a mite embarrassed to have been caught.

    Saw another 3-5 cars in the cycle lane and a few parked up when I was leaving again.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Cars do seem to be tempted to use them - perhaps because they have yet to attract many cyclists?

    Possibly because on the realisation that they—the hard-pressed motorist—are being made to go the long way around while the scofflaw cyclist gets a nice shortcut, the irritability boils over into impatience, and leads to chance-taking. That way, if they make it to the other side without invoking any penalty, they have 'beaten the system' for another day and their reward for driving has been earned.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Motorcyclist coming down the lane this morning driving on the right hand side of it. Crossed the junction then stopped, got off the bike and looked thoroughly confused about where he was and where he was going.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. wingpig
    Member

    There are some roadworks just east of Frederick Street with some surrounding fencing which looks like it might get pushed into the cycle lane by the end of the day. There was a mini-excavator nudging the fence-base outwards by lobbing wee bits of chipped-up tarmac at it when I went past this morning.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. PS
    Member

    Cooncil rep confirmed at the NTBCC last week that they are aware of the issue of cars using the bike lanes and were planning on putting a bollard in. Original plan was one of the bendy bollards to allow speedy access for emergency services, but the fire brigade said they were no good as their new tenders have chains underneath, so they would simply drag any bollard the length of the street. Cooncil now looking at a removable bollard - presumably it will have to be removed at the alloted time each morning to allow delivery access.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. Ed1
    Member

    May be even if there a clear sign saying no cars, a red circle type one or something on the road as I suppose could be clearer may be.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. deckard112
    Member

    Actually Ed1 I noticed that the other day. There is a complete lack of signage to advise drivers of limits to access. If I wasn't overly familiar with the area I could see myself trying to access them so there is definitely some confusion as well as the chancers.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. acsimpson
    Member

    I've not seen the lane since it opened but certainly sound like an aspect of rational crime. Where the inverse of (chance of being caught) x (penalty if caught) / (any feeling of morals experienced by the driver) is more than the benefit the driver thinks they will gain from acting like an ejit they will go ahead and act like the aforementioned ejit.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin


    Untitled by blackpuddinonnabike, on Flickr

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. That was Friday morning - posted on Twitter and FB with the query as to whether Edinburgh Council would block off an entire lane of motorised traffic in rush hour without warning or diversion signs.

    Yesterday I happened to have to go into town for a couple of things, and waiting at the lights to head east onto the last section three cars coming up from Dundas turned right into the lane. All stopping momentarily, then going ahead, around me, with shrugs that said "What do you expect me to do?". I've been riding this route quite a few mornings to get a good feel for it, to be able to put a sensible message in to the council...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. Morningsider
    Member

    WC - welcome back!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    CEC says -

    "

    bollards at the ends of the cycle path are planned for implementation in the next month.

    "

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. I was told that after snapping a picture of a taxi turning into the bike lane from Charlotte Sq. Which was, ooh, about 6-7 weeks ago...

    Hey Morningsider, 'back' in a fairly loose sense, but will post when I can!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. Okay, I'm trying to make sense of my thoughts on this, but feel I ought to as I'd been a defender of the scheme (though in my defence had always caveated with 'if it's done properly'). My main gripes (that will be communicated to the Council) are perhaps more stinging to me because this could, should be a wonderful piece of infrastructure...

    Disconnected
    This was the biggie. It was only ever going to work if it was properly connected. The problem, though, isn't just that it isn't properly connected, but they seem to have gone out of the way to make it as awkward as possible. Heading off the lane at either end you get directed up onto the pedestrian crossing, putting you neatly in the middle of two sets of motorised traffic lights, with nowhere to go other than cross the road to the squares and from there to.... Hmmmm. Joining the lane from Charlotte Sq isn't bad, given there are specific lights and a turning lane (though you've got to cross two lanes of traffic to get there and it takes a confident cyclists to take the lane from Princes St as is the best way to approach it). Coming from anywhere east to the lane is just mind-bogglingly awkward, traffic-busy, and tramline laden. So you have this little oasis ostensibly to get unconfident people riding, but no way for them to get there without awkward and busy roads.

    The Switchover
    I can only surmise this is because of the need to have a different traffic order to switch the traffic flow direction for the motorised traffic. Whatever, it's nonsense. The middle switch is kind of okay. The swing around the statue at Castle Street heading west is bonkers given sightlines and traffic expectations. I suppose this is a trial, and so they'll be seeing if the (well-implemented) same side, traffic-light controlled bit to the east is better (it is, let's tell them so).

    The potholes
    All of that work gone into lines and shifting sets of lights and so on, and what do they leave? Ruddy big potholes in sections.

    The unfinished nature
    It's open now. It's in use. I remember complaining about certain aspects on Twitter and a Councillor telling me to wait till it's open. Well it is. And still the push button for the cycle crossing on the east end doesn't work; there's no thought for where to put cyclists at either end to leave the lane; and there are still no bollards to stop motorised traffic travelling down it despite repeated promises.

    Lack of Protection
    Ties in with the bollards. There's nothing stopping anyone driving onto it, or (as the picture above illustrates) completely blocking it to carry out works, with no alternative provided.

    Sight Screens
    I don't mind the outdoor eating areas, I like them in fact, bringing that European flavour to what should be a European style street (i.e. pedestrianised...). But what is with the sight screens just before each pedestrian crossing? They're a nice idea, just not where they are!

    Just... Slapdash...
    I get that it's a trial, but for a trial to be fair, for a trial to show if something like this would work and improve the area, it needs to be 'worthy' of using. If I'm on it I'll use the lane for the first two sections, then ignore the switchover and carry on along the road because I'm a confident enough cyclist to do so; those lacking confidence can't get there because it's marooned in the middle of the city. Ergo, stats will show it being under-utilised, and not required. 'We gave cyclists a completely segregated area, they didn't use it, too bad'. It's a fairly typical half-hearted attempt from the city attempting to get, what was it, 10% of journeys by bike by 2020?

    Depressing to be proved wrong, but wrong I am. Like I say, this could and should be perfect, but once again rather than studying those who have already done this before us and simply copying the template, Edinburgh Council has gone with its own plan, and... Well, we'll see what the results of the trial are.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. Ed1
    Member

    I think its a good effort by the council, is an oasis of "Amsterdam" that is not well connected. It looks good for people that do not realize this when walking in George street. By creating this illusion may raise expectations and make people feel more comfortable with changes on their streets as creates a feel this is the new normal so has benefits this illusion could help these things become a reality.

    I do find a too many cars on it at times.

    I also do a lap or 2 of the scheme when I am not in hurry so that it looks like its getting used more, I also try and include this route if going across town.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I can only surmise this is because of the need to have a different traffic order to switch the traffic flow direction for the motorised traffic.

    This may be the 'real' reason, though I seem to remember CEC saying that the switching of sides was towards helping patronise the greater number of eating establishments on that side of George Street. I've re-read this whole thread and poked about on CEC's website and can't find the reference.

    However, I did come across this:

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/directory_record/448621/petition_to_remove_the_new_changes_to_george_street

    As an occasional motor(cycl)ist who anyway actively avoids driving in the middle of Edinburgh, I shall not be signing this petition. And at any rate, edd1e_h earlier opined that this grand experiment was not likely to be dismantled any time soon.

    "Edinburgh used to be one of the easiest cities to drive in in the world…"

    Perhaps because there were fewer drivists in those grand old days.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. DdF
    Member

    Definitely some good points by WC but there are other points to remember...

    Disconnected - absolutely, but (1) whereever a route ends, it would be good if it went further! (2) at the west end remember the council has been fighting nimbys for 2 years who had lodged objections preventing more charlotte sq space being given to peds/cyclists (this, legally, had to go to a govt reporter inquiry, hence the timescale) - spokes tweeted about it fairly recently. Also (3) the council has appointed consultants to work on options for a major e-w route roseburn-leith which obviously would include these connections (or an alternative via Princes ST) - public consultation is promised. (discussed on twitter a few months ago, and I think here too). NB - These comments are not to disagree with the point that the actual exit is poorly designed.

    The switchover
    It makes for a poor result for cycling, but the reasons have been stated many times. It is easy to think of George ST as just a cycling experiment, but the George St project is not just for cycling (indeed not primarily for cycling) but balances many interests. The council decided wide pavements/ cafes, etc were in general best on the sunny side, except that they also wanted wide pavements at the assembly rooms. Hence a switchover became a necessity for those non-cycling reasons. Definitely agree that the Fred St and Castle st junctions need improved. Council said that lights were too costly for the experiment but would be considered if became permanent.

    Bollards @ visibility at cafes
    totally agree on these points

    We gave cyclists a completely segregated area, they didn't use it, too bad
    It may happen, but no evidence of that so far. In fact, as mentioned above, concil has appointed consultants for a much longer /comprehensive E-W route . If Geo St stats are low, this will be an argument for a re-think in Princes St instead of or as well as George St. (The council agreed to do Pr St counts as well as Geo St).

    Finally
    The address to sent comments is...
    iain.macphail AT edinburgh.gov.uk

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    @ WC

    Good summary.

    @ DdF

    Useful additional info/reminders.

    Not aware of this/forgotten -

    "at the west end remember the council has been fighting nimbys for 2 years who had lodged objections preventing more charlotte sq space being given to peds/cyclists"

    Any more details/links?

    A real problem is that apart from a few (some on here/Spokes insiders/some councillors and officials) who take a close/clinical interest in all this, the point/purpose/intentions/realities are all a bit of a mystery (to the 'general public'). Therefore easy for 'critics' (not meaning 'cycle campaigners'!) to rubbish it.

    All the more reason for 'us' to want to see these things done better/properly without having to 'understand the background'.

    In short - it's not great, confusing, piecemeal and potentially dangerous in places.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. Arellcat
    Moderator

    OT: Not sure why my earlier post only appears when I'm logged into CCE.

    ADMIT EDIT

    Spam trap a bit busy today.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. PS
    Member

    Iain MacPhail was the Council chap I mentioned in my post above. On another thread (St James Centre?) I metioned that he's also trying to coordinate the Picardy Place/Leith St public realm improvements (with peds the priority and cyclists second in the pecking order). So with a bit of support he may be able to facilitate a bit of joining up.

    I'd love to know if there is some sort of cycling facility master plan at work here (I suspect not), as even a well-intentioned piecemeal approach is unlikely to generate a great result - cf either end of the George St trial.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. DdF
    Member

    @ chdot

    Charlotte Square council 2-year battle to remove car parking and add more space for ped & cycle...
    Result
    But not clear when/what is next stage as there still seem to be further discussions with developer.

    @ PS
    'Master Plan' - I guess this is what the east-west route roseburn-Leith will be. I have heard that the consultants have been appointed recently, so presumably we can expect consultation in the coming months. Certainly won't be easy with so many different interests involved. Making a really good route would impact on main roads, let alone the uncertainties around picardy place, st james quarter development, Leith Street etc.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    @ DdF

    Thanks

    So it was about PARKING.

    Should have known...!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. SRD
    Moderator

    but was it? the file doesn't seem to include the complaints, but the text says they claimed it would displace traffic onto their residential streets.

    looking at it on the map, i don't see how it could possibly, given all the road closures through there.

    presume it was mainly spite? they knew they could hold them up so they did?

    Posted 9 years ago #

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