Now the 'temporary version' is being seen as a success (at least for businesses), the permanent version can go ahead and will hopefully have some improvements based on the lessons learned...
Stay positive!
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
George Street Improvements
(1192 posts)-
Posted 10 years ago #
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George Street seems like a destination rather than a through route like what Princes Street would have been in an alternative universe of joined up thinking. As a destination it still needs a lot of improvement, though. The travesty of the Festival was that the bike lanes were seen as an inconvenience that needed to be rerouted instead of adding to the fun. A pity and a wasted opportunity. And as a destination there should be no through routes for traffic in any direction apart may from limited bus lane access.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Beyond the bits of tarmac for folk to wander on to the next restaurant pavilion (as per my post on the previous page) what it has done has remove speeding coaches, bouncing double-deckers and some of the faster-moving and very noisy vehicles from within a couple of feet of the strolling pedestrian. That's actually quite a big win.
However, public realm improvements (including parking removal) are what's really needed to improve it for peds.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"However, public realm improvements (including parking removal) are what's really needed to improve it for peds."
Ah well, but 'of course' all the pedestrians arrive by car...
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Stay positive!"
OK
It's better because of removing "speeding coaches, bouncing double-deckers and some of the faster-moving and very noisy vehicles"
It's better because of 'increased footfall' - which presumably means more money for traders and increased likelihood that they will stay.
It's better because it's being hailed as a success and will therefore become 'permanent'.
It's better because permanent will mean that many of the problems 'we' have identified will be addressed.
BUT from a 'cycling' point of view 'we' are still complaining/whinging/picking holes. However more importantly it's not exactly well used - which can't really be because 'we' are boycotting it!
It's not really connected to anything. A segregated route along the north side of StASq might strike some as 'tokenism' BUT it should have been the very least that should have been in place before the experiment started - to connect with the NCN link to Dublin Street. (Of course there is the 'problem' of the one-way [for cyclists] shared use pavement.)
So once against it's back to 'well it's better than it was' - same is true for (parts of) the QBiC.
Incremental is all very well, but there needs to be -
A) some sort of 'destination' (ie a plan for some decent JOINED-UP infrastructure) and
B) a convincing degree of 'pace'.
Posted 10 years ago # -
And
C) less need for anyone to
a) 'just' complain.
b) spend a lot of time being consulted and suggesting things 'they' should have thought of in the first place. Then 'we' could POSITIVELY welcome what was being planned and (help to) persuade 'others' (drivers, councillors, EN etc.) that it's all a good thing!
Posted 10 years ago # -
Ah well, but 'of course' all the pedestrians arrive by car...
If only there were a couple of underutilised multi-storey car parks within easy walking distance of George St. Oh. ;-)
You're right, chdot, the piecemeal approach does let this down.
I don't doubt that the Council is looking at East-West routes, and that the north, south and east sides of St Andrew Square will be part of that, (and maybe even York Place, which has hatched space very similar to the width of a cycle lane running for much of its length) but the absence of a published masterplan means that this is not clear.
The masterplan doesn't need to be particularly detailed - just enough of a declaration of intent so we can see how it might all fit together.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"The masterplan doesn't need to be particularly detailed"
Ah, if only this was the 60s when planners and highway engineers only had to draw lines on paper maps and only worry about what was 'on the ground' when they had convinced the politicians it was "progress".
In some places the politicians didn't need any persuading about "progress".
Fortunately (perhaps) not many lived in Edinburgh. Edinburgh's conservatism (even at a time when the ruling party was called the Progressive - "It was based on tacit anti-Labour co-operation between the Unionist Party, Scottish Liberals and Independents") meant that the 'fashion' for urban freeways largely passed it by.
" - just enough of a declaration of intent so we can see how it might all fit together."
You would think that such things would be in all the various Local and Strategic Plans, but they seldom are.
Having positively embraced the 'revised' plans for Leith Walk, you'd think CEC would be talking excitedly about the 'London Road to Queen/George Streets' section'.
WE would be/(ARE) ready to praise its boldness.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Having positively embraced the 'revised' plans for Leith Walk, you'd think CEC would be talking excitedly about the 'London Road to Queen/George Streets' section'.
I think they're talking about it, but only in private to the St James Centre developers...
Posted 10 years ago # -
"I think they're talking about it, but only in private to the St James Centre developers..."
No doubt.
Which of course is 'part of the problem' in so many ways.
Both CEC and developer seem to want another tram stop - or a new one instead of the York Place one(?)
Some opportunity for re-assessing use of road/pavement spaces in York Place.
Though once they've agreed on 'what needs to be done' and fixed a price/'contribution', there won't be much scope/money for changing/improving things they might have 'forgotten' about.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Are the bike racks where they used to be?"
Dunno, I think so.
"Are there any new ones??"
Yes, it appears there are lots of shiny stainless steel Sheffield stands at the ends of each car parking zone. Which is nice.
Posted 10 years ago # -
DaveC - 'Cyclists rejoin Road' is a much cheaper alternative to putting a dedicated cycle traffic light on the east end of George St. To rephase the lights to allow safe cyclists emergence as well as motor traffic and pedestrian access was obviously a pita. Instead they just lump cyclists with pedestrians.
Meant to say that I've now seen someone cycle over at toucan crossing, turn left and cycle on wrong side of road. I think there is a cycle lane there and cyclist is assuming it must be contraflow. This means they scoot round into north St Andrew Square in and turn right in the gutter zone against oncoming cyclists (if there were any).
Not sure but person maybe hadn't understood that the toucan and the sign are not really connected. Person was maybe continental and assumed it was.Posted 10 years ago # -
"Person was maybe continental and assumed it was."
You mean used to cycling on the 'wrong' side - or do you just mean 'joined-up'...?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Well they would be lured to other side as a green bicycle was shown. Arrow points to left. In continent you do have contraflow bike lanes and a Dutch or Danish person (eg) is used to moving across with a big mass of pedestrians on a green light.
They would never expect to do a diagonal and have to use lanes in middle of road. A crossing is a crossing so they would expect a delineated two way cycle lane to continue on other side as that is European norm. Especially after being on a two way segregated path till then. They would also note that this path changed side of street it ran on so was not entirely predictable.Posted 10 years ago # -
Didn't even know there was a cycle lane on the 'other' side of north St Andrew Square. (IIRC used to be end-on car parking all the way around about a decade or more ago?) How can it be 'wrong' side of road though? Is it not one way system there nowadays?
Posted 10 years ago # -
I'll need to investigate about bike lane - think there is remnant of one on west side of square.
He would be only going against traffic to corner as you say. He may have felt that was less 'risky' than a right turn in traffic?! North side is all one way now.
Posted 10 years ago # -
When I was there, I definitely couldn't figure out what to do.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Is there a mechanism for suggesting improvements to George Street? I'm thinking of little things that they could do for almost nothing that would improve it, inch it towards usefulness and permanence. Bollards, obviously. Moving or at least angling those 'history' boards so they're less of a barrier to seeing wandering pedestrians. That sort of thing.
Posted 10 years ago # -
It sounds like you need to organise a tour with people from the council, on bikes, to look at the problem areas and discuss improvements. Adam McVey would appear to be the place to start. I don't know how you'd organise that - through Spokes maybe?
Posted 10 years ago # -
@ Inst
City Centre / Leith Neighbourhood
1 Cockburn Street
Edinburgh
EH1 1BJEmail: citycentreteam@edinburgh.gov.uk
Tel: 0131 529 7061
https://www.facebook.com/cclneighbourhoodleithcentralcc.co.uk
http://www.edinburghnp.org.uk/neighbourhood-partnerships/city-centre/
Posted 10 years ago # -
"It sounds like you need to organise a tour with people from the council, on bikes, to look at the problem areas and discuss improvements."
http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/B120pall.reduced.pdf
Posted 10 years ago # -
I see in the Spokes leaflet there's an email address at the council for commenting on the experiment.
Posted 10 years ago # -
The east end of GS is definitely a muddle. Cyclists come off the cycle path 12ft short onto the ped island instead of just stopping at St Andrew Sq. They are directed onto the road by the 'Rejoin Road' sign (pointing left (north)) but the 'green man' sign is twinned with a green cycle, suggesting cyclist continue over to St Andrew Sq proper but of course as the path goes left (route 1) on the inside of the gyratory there are no further cycle directions.
The pod cycle path on the south bound side of the west side (inside heading to Princes St), is now cut off at the ped crossing to that GS island as rubber kerbs and railing is in place to extend the path at that point, where people come off the sq, to give more room for waiting pedestrians. Its (the old cycle lane) is wide enough for cars to stop in without interupting traffic flow, as I have seen them do.
Finally that 'rejoin road' sign is to direct cyclists continuing on Route 1, left (immediate left) across peds stepping out across the road, on the 'proper carriageway not a contraflow/car drop off point. The reason for this is, if you were to assume the old cycle lane was a contraflow and head against the traffic on the southbound carrageway when you want to turn right onto the North side there are temporary rubber kerbs and traffic light poles at the west side of North St Andrew Sq prevent cyclists on that wrong side (what someone thought was a contraflow) from turning right. On N orth St Andrew Sq there is only a clockwise cycle lane outside the bus tours pickup bus stops (now Waverley Bridge is having its pavements relaid) and the south side of N St A Sq is still diagonal parking and not a contraflow (east to west) either... gosh that was a mouthfull! Cyclists coming from Dublin St to cycle along GS are directed clockwise round South St Andrew Sq, only this is currently closed as demolition is nearing completion.
Hope this is helpful & as I said, that whole west side of St Andrew Sq is a mish mash of incomplete road work. For instance the traffic lights at the west end of N St Andrew Sq have rubber tactile stippled squares and an opening in the temporary rubber kerbs for peds to cross over to the Std Life building on GS but the ped lights were actually put in on the north side of the lights junction taking peds to the exit of Thistle Street! Its like it was all done temporarily but then left and forgotten about.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Hope this is helpful."
NO!
But your description is...
Didn't realise south side was completely shut.
Presume all traffic is being directed(?) along Meuse Lane.
So 'no simple route' from Dublin Street to George Street just got worse!
Posted 10 years ago # -
Yes kind of. Drivers that know turn left towards The Guildford etc.. those that don't head straight on and halt at Princes Street confussed. Some end up getting honked at by a tram and drive onto Princes Street, and some reverse back and take Meuse lane. Its a bit of a mess. I have seen cyclists riding all over, on the pavement outside McDonalds, through the actual Sq itself! and some getting off and walking to GS.
Posted 10 years ago # -
It's Iain MacPhail at the Council who is looking after this and, crucially, how this links up to the Leith Walk improvements, what will happen to Picardy Place/Leith Street following demolition of the St James Centre, and the public realm improvements on the North and South sides of St Andrew Square.
As Insto indicates, his email address in on page 3 of the Spokes bulletin linked to in chdot's post.
Posted 10 years ago # -
https://twitter.com/talkporty/status/529995685656297472
Edinburgh Council @Edinburgh_CC 20 hours ago
Have you seen the changes to George Street? Initial feedback shows pedestrians are in favour http://bit.ly/1vIsJGm pic.twitter.com/YIhVfaxNZITalkPorty~Portobello @talkporty 20 hours ago
@Edinburgh_CC please ensure the views at http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12983 … (15+ pages) are pulled in as feedback on the George St changesEdinburgh Council @Edinburgh_CC 19 hours ago
@talkporty thanks - we are aware of the threadPosted 10 years ago # -
Went back to see what happened if crossed at green bike and headed north facing the traffic (!) There is an old cycle lane there.
Turns out north side is two way at moment. Temporary mini roundabout.
Corner has barriers as Kaputnik and others have noted.
St Andrew Square - partial bike lane by LaidBackBikes, on Flickr
St Andrew Square - partial bike lane by LaidBackBikes, on Flickr
St Andrew Square - north side 2-way temporary roundabout by LaidBackBikes, on FlickrPosted 10 years ago # -
Er, 3rd photo seems to show continental driving??!
Posted 10 years ago # -
It's fairly casual around there at moment. I could easily have gone round corner on wrong side of road and it would have worked in perfectly with other road users!
Posted 10 years ago #
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