Of course this thread sent me to Google Maps and I have now also realized that, weirdly, George Square is aligned with the New Town's grid (although I'm guessing that's mediated by South Bridge/Clerk Street)
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
George Street Improvements
(1192 posts)-
Posted 6 years ago #
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Does anyone know why it was built squint?
I would guess that it aligned to the road from Stockbridge. That would depend on Howe Street having been built on the alignment of that road, which is possibly a bit of a stretch, given the abrupt turn it makes at the SE corner of Circus Place.
Posted 6 years ago # -
As far as I can tell from the succession of old maps, the building of the New Town proceeded westwards and northwards, starting roughly with Thistle St and St Andrew Square. The houses/tenements of Frederick Street were constructed starting at the south-eastern corner, by Princes Street.
Howe Street, St Vincent Street and Royal Circus et al were already planned by that time. The road from Stockbridge (what we know as Circus Place) was constructed only after Howe Street had reached Jamaica Street on the west side, and to accommodate it, Royal Circus was altered from a horizonal H shape to an X shape.
So although there's a gap in the evidence I've found so far, it's possible that Howe Street was laid out slightly too far to the west and Frederick Street was realigned during construction. Kirkwood's 1819 map shows very clearly the way the Frederick St houses were stepped to the west (and is a joy to look at anyway). The 'mis'alignment of Frederick St was a detail overlooked by many subsequent mapmakers, who were anyway reproducing at a smaller scale, The early Ordnance Survey of Edinburgh in 1852 however did it properly.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@Blueth, "there will be rising bollards to prevent "normal" traffic using the street."
That's interesting, did not see anything on the plans to indicate that. Rising bollards could create all kinds of fun.
Not sure how that proposal will work if buses, deliveries and disabled access are to be preserved? Buses and delivery lorries could have some sort of token to lower the bollards I suppose. Disabled drivers though? Magic bollards that can spot a blue badge on a car?
Along with the proposed fancy paving stones, rising bollards are going to be expensive to install and maintain. Bus gate cameras issuing penalty charges would be more cost effective and might bring in some revenue to offset the loss to the council of current parking income. Though that latter could also be offset simply by extending the CPZ north and east into Leith and Abbeyhill.
Posted 6 years ago # -
I have no doubt, crowriver, that uniformed (Georgian style) functionaries will be stationed at each point to raise and lower the barriers☺
But really the millions could be better spent elsewhere if the new layout just becomes a wall of buses waiting to get in to the stops. Couldn't most bus users get themselves to George Street from Queen Street?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Functionaries paid for by Essential Edinburgh perchance?
"But really the millions could be better spent elsewhere if the new layout just becomes a wall of buses waiting to get in to the stops. "
Agreed.
"Couldn't most bus users get themselves to George Street from Queen Street?"
Or indeed from Princes Street.
Posted 6 years ago # -
As far as I understood from my chat with one of the designers, there aren't any bollards planned at the moment; however, the polis have yet to put the plans through their anti-terrorism lens so it may be that raising bollards are added in due course.
Posted 6 years ago # -
"however, the polis have yet to put the plans through their anti-terrorism lens"
So, more of this kind of crap then?
Or maybe they'll just plonk huge concrete hexagon shapes on the pavement, like they have at the corner of the Omni Centre steps leading to Playhouse. (Heaven help a wheelchair user trying to get through there.) Of course the carriageway will be unobstructed and adjacent "loading" or blue badge bays will be full of taxis, PHVs and random shoppers' cars dropping off or "waiting".
Posted 6 years ago # -
I have this sense that maybe other places have found ways of "hardening" city centres against possible terrorism that are less visually hideous. Is this just another way that Edinburgh is "different"?
Posted 6 years ago # -
I have done some asking behind the scenes. This attempt at blue-badge parking will obviously be a disaster and will be horribly abused. If you support full pedestrianisation (hint: with blue badge side street parking) then TELL THEM IN THE CONSULTATION. The more people who suggest this totally obvious solution the better :-)
Posted 6 years ago # -
Have to say I found it odd that they had info boards at the City Art Centre showing proportions of consultation respondents agreeing or disagreeing with various questions. And yet, the consultation only ends today?
Also, as others have mentioned, the connection between the designs presented and the aims of the "transformation" agenda was rather tenuous, at best. I cannot help but conclude that the Council have already decided on a "third way" fudge - neither radical nor quite the status quo. Instead, just moving a few metres (of segregated cycleway, widened footways and raised table "shared space") in the direction of radical change, while to all intents and purposes retaining as much of the status quo as possible (bar parking in the middle of the street).
I'm reminded of the Transport Convener's infamous use of the talismanic word "balance" during the Picardy Place debacle. That's what the plans presented at the City Art Centre do: they "balance" the competing claims of different groups for access to George Street. Which of course, fails to acknowledge that the status quo scales are weighted heavily in favour of motorists (whether private, commercial or public transport drivers). The plans nudge the scales a bit, but the "balance" still massively favours motorised transport, just not quite as massively as at present.
I suppose what I'm saying is prepare yourselves for a rather deflating sense of disappointment. Again. Maybe not quite as disappointing as Picardy Place, but still pretty close given the lofty rhetoric being bandied about, and the lack of any confidential, legally binding GAM agreement allegedly forcing the council's hand.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@crowriver, this consultation is part of pre-CCT activity. Again, see my post. Tell them you want full pedestrianisation :-)
Posted 6 years ago # -
I've already responded to the consultation weeks ago. The questions on the info boards were the exact questions I answered. Both in-person and online responses were tabulated.
That is why I was somewhat mystified as to why they were there, particularly given the disconnect with the presented plans. The sense of fait accompli hung heavily in the air, especially when I overheard representatives explaining how the plans would work. So as I explained previously I was rather too dispirited to attempt constructive engagement verbally with officials and representatives who were locked into selling the plans as outlined.
By contrast, the recent drop-in consultation on the Meadowbank masterplan was much more open-ended, with officials in listening rather than selling mode.
Posted 6 years ago # -
'"hardening" city centres against possible terrorism that are less visually hideous'
The wee toothypeg bollards outside the parliament are OK.
Posted 6 years ago # -
I've already responded to the consultation weeks ago.
George St is a separate consultation: https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/george-street-and-first-new-town-design-project/
Posted 6 years ago # -
@crowriver, ok, fair enough. The point is, there is a lot of pre-CCT activity that is still playing itself out. This is now being over-taken by CCT events, so it's important to reply to these consultations with a final CCT destination in mind (transformational) - in this case full pedestrianisation. Clearly, this proposal isn't in-line with CCT ambitions; this isn't some grand conspiracy, it's a symptom of over-lap.
Posted 6 years ago # -
"The wee toothypeg bollards outside the parliament are OK."
I presume you are referring to the "sculptural" squat wee bollards in cast concrete. These have of course been supplemented, rendered superfluous even, by phalanxes of tall grey steel "tank stopper" bollards around the edges of all the paved areas.
Also they built that hideous box out from the side of the building, just to house an airport departures style security scanner plus associated queueing system. And more recently they have installed a dreadful watchtower for security guards overlooking not only the rear entrance to the car park / police waiting area, but also the previous haven of peace that was the Parly's wee back garden.
Even before all this ridiculous over provision of security apparatus was installed, one of the reasons for the building's cost overruns was a post-9/11 stipulation from the security services that it be fitted with bomb proof glass, higher perimeter walls, etc. to deter terrorists.
So I think the Parly building is not really a good example of "discreet" security measures in an urban context!
Posted 6 years ago # -
@Frenchy, "George St is a separate consultation".
Aha, only just opened too. I'm still mystified at the inclusion of CCT consultation responses before that consultation ended, and alongside plans which are fairly far from being transformative.
"Clearly, this proposal isn't in-line with CCT ambitions; this isn't some grand conspiracy, it's a symptom of over-lap."
Overlap? Or conflation/confusion? For some, the plans as presented could be "transformational", even radical. Clearly that's not my view.
I suppose I will feed back to the George Street / New Town thing online once my consultation fatigue has abated somewhat...
Posted 6 years ago # -
I was speaking specifically and only about the bollards, not the explosion-ducting concrete ceiling in reception, nor the ponds, nor the bumpity grass.
Posted 6 years ago # -
it's a symptom of over-lap
Unfortunately, this makes the council look incompetent and plays straight into the hands of EEN, Nick Cook and any other frothers.
Posted 6 years ago # -
ridiculous over provision of security apparatus
So nice of them to put the climbing-holds in for anyone wishing to scale the perimeter...
Posted 6 years ago # -
@neddie, that may be the case. But the fact is that CCT activity is trying to unpick a lot of half-baked (classic Edinburgh fudge) projects and nit them back together again under the transformational vision.
If that gives the haters some ammo, then so be it, but the end result will be a much improved, coherent plan to take forward.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Duplication leads to confusion.
Always follow DRY principles (Don't repeat yourself)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_repeat_yourself
Relates to software development, but equally applicable to any kind of development:
Violations of DRY are typically referred to as WET solutions, which is commonly taken to stand for either "write everything twice", "we enjoy typing" or "waste everyone's time" [my bold]
Posted 6 years ago # -
"waste everyone's time"
That's certainly how it feels! Presenting a design which is not in line with the CCT is either a waste of time (and money) or another Picardy Place omnishambles. One of the two.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@wingpig, 'I was speaking specifically and only about the bollards'
Indeed so, but specifically in response to this:
' "hardening" city centres against possible terrorism that are less visually hideous'
Which I took to be the context of this thread of discussion. ;-)
Posted 6 years ago # -
I think we can all agree that the Council are not making this easy for anyone wanting to see a people-centred city. Picardy Place burnt through a lot of good will and will be a black hole in the city centre for decades. Leith Walk was an unnecessary trial. The postponment of waves of cycling projects has spread cynicism amongst many who engaged with the consultations.
I appreciate the George Street project predated the CCT and has its own momentum. It would have made sense for the Council to dovetail the timetable for the CCT project to integrate with George Street. They haven't - and now confusion seems the order of the day.
I still think it worth engaging, pushing for the best in both George Street and CCT, but frankly - I'm fed up. Just once I would like to look at a proposal and think "Nice work! Nothing I can really add."
We have been promised a "transformation" and George Street is absolutely central to this. Picardy Place rules out major change to Queen Street, the tram rules out major change to Princes Street - the major east-west and north-south cycle routes will converge at George Street. Get this wrong and there is no transformation, just the usual trebles all round at Edinburgh's transport consultancies.
Posted 6 years ago # -
'Just once I would like to look at a proposal and think "Nice work! Nothing I can really add."'
Nowadays it's usually "What did I say about this the last time? Do they have all responses recorded from the previous similar consultation or do they start afresh with each iteration? When they change consultancy firms do they have a proper handover?"
Posted 6 years ago # -
@neddie, these fences and gates were not part of Miralles' original design, for instance. They are a post-9/11 addition, and ugly to boot. (Note the serried rows of tank trap bollards are painted the same shade of frigate grey as the anti-riff-raff fences and secure access gates).
The original concept was for the Parliament to be an open building, to literally symbolise transparency of governance. You were supposed to be able to wander into that courtyard and peer into the debating chamber to see legislators at work.
That may seem a bit naive to us in retrospect. However I do think the security industry have spoiled, and continue to ruin what would have been a wonderful building. Alas the Scottish architects RMJM went along with it all after Miralles' and Dewar's deaths. They turned the place into an somewhat austere concrete fortress (oddly reminiscent of their earlier work at Tories nuclear power station) albeit adorned with a few formal devices and decorative touches inherited from Miralles' design concepts.
Posted 6 years ago # -
trebles all round at Edinburgh's transport consultancies
Must fire in a CV. Hedge my bets.
Posted 6 years ago # -
The whole consultation system is flawed/broken. This should allow concerted effort to influence the process but only if enough cyclists infiltrate all levels of the process.
I went in heavy with the Tory councillor at the farmers market the other day - hello councillor. How can we make Balerno car free. This stunned him into silence then merely repeating back to him what I said Make Balerno Car Free.
I know one traffic modeller who cycles to work. Just one.
We must remain both fast and bulbous in our work.
Posted 6 years ago #
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