CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

(not) Losing your rag

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  1. urchaidh
    Member

    I was passed by a car this morning, it squeezed past me despite cars passing in the opposite direction, too close in my opinion but nothing really outrageous.

    It's street with setts which are in very bad repair so I'm maybe a bit more wary about how much space I have there, and the result of the manoeuvre was that the car joined the traffic queue 50m ahead a few seconds quicker than it would have done if it had waited behind me.

    Anyway, the car window was down so I took the opportunity to tell the driver that I thought they passed too close and that it had made no difference to their journey.

    The driver was indignant and then played the "I've done cycle training" and "I cycle to work twice a week" cards. I got annoyed with this and the discussion degenerated into argument and then onto little more than abuse hurling. This descent was mostly my fault.

    So now I feel really bad, my opinion of the driver as a selfish, deluded, moron is unchanged but I really wish I hadn't lost my rag. I should not have been so abusive.

    So, who loses their rag in situations like this, and who doesn't? How do you avoid it? When I'm cycling my heart rate is up and I'm sure there's a wee bit of adrenaline kicking around, so are yo more likely to be confrontational when on a bike?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. SRD
    Moderator

    "So, who loses their rag in situations like this, and who doesn't? How do you avoid it? When I'm cycling my heart rate is up and I'm sure there's a wee bit of adrenaline kicking around, so are yo more likely to be confrontational when on a bike?"

    I've not lost my rag since i got my camera. but then i've also not been cycling much of late....

    I do think it helps that I know I can go online and post about it after.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. condor2378
    Member

    I also lose my rag and get a bit "Grrr" even though I have a camera. If you have a bit of time to think what you're going to say first then you can maybe avoid swearing, but it's a natural reaction when your life is put needlessly in danger IMO.

    Another poster here (sorry, can't remember who) said that they approach drivers with a "You were a bit close there and you gave me a fright." which instantly highlights that you're actually a person and vulnerable. Not used it myself yet, but I can see how it might work on some.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @urchaidh

    I used to lose it on occasions. The reason was that I was projecting a generalised anger onto specific motorists. This was not helpful to anyone so I made an effort to stop doing it. If you can keep the conversation to the fact that your are sad that conflict has arisen or that you want the motorist to know that you have been scared then the response is generally empathetic.

    I now always start any such conversation with 'Good morning'. Oddly, I never have any run-ins in the evening, because I'm not in a hurry. There could be a learning there too.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. calmac
    Member

    I'm generally pretty good at staying on the right side of the assertive-aggressive line, but less so in the car and scarcely at all on the bike.

    It's a death thing.

    I don't particularly want to die any time soon. I don't want my wife to be widowed and my children to grow up without a father. If that has to happen, I don't want it to be because some selfish halfwit couldn't do us all the courtesy of operating their two-ton machine moving at ungodly speed with due care and attention.

    My anger with idiocy that could end my life and seriously damage three more runs deep and dark.

    I don't think any cyclist should feel bad about losing their temper, so long as they don't end up wearing the other person's skull as a hat. Reckless stupidity that could kill you is likely to make you cross.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. paul.mag
    Member

    Whenever I have cause to speak to a driver I have no interest in understanding what their point of view is. I'm simply telling them that their driving was poor not entering into a debate about it. Do we seriously think they are going to change their minds or attitude?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    "don't end up wearing the other person's skull as a hat"

    Just laughed out loud in the office.

    Thing is though that you need to think about the utility of anger. It's very useful if you need to do something awful like hurt someone. It's very unhelpful for almost everything else. Nobody has ever influenced me to do anything through a dsplay of anger. Quite the opposite.

    Many motorists beieve that anyone who cycles does so because they don't own a car, and are therefore 'other'. I like to try to engage with them so that they recognise me as a neighbour, fellow citizen or colleague. That way we can band together to make clothes from the skin of the true enemy - senile dog walkers.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. gembo
    Member

    I gave a guy abuse for following a lorry that was turning right against a red light to head west up the cowgate. No way to do that at the st Mary's st junction without positioning yourself over the line and waiting for traffic to clear, lorry driver did make it very obvious what he was going to do. The guy behind was not over the line and turned left down to moray house about one minute after the light to let him do this had turned from green to red.

    He did not like being called a sheep but the motorcyclist on huge other side joined in in telling him he was wrong.

    That is the only time I lose it, except when I am heckled by grannies with dogs when I AM IN THE RIGHT:-)

    Best to be zen and let things go as it is a jungle out there for everyone?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. panyagua
    Member

    I try very hard not to lose it, but that's partly because I don't do anger very well, and end up hurling ill-chosen words at random, which I end up feeling embarrassed about later. I don't believe any good comes out of such displays - if anything, it will make the other party more angry (and hence potentially more dangerous with respect to subsequent encounters), and it will certainly not improve their attitude towards cyclists. To those of you who can do 'controlled anger' well - hats off to you (skull or otherwise).

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. wangi
    Member

    I was overtaking a cyclist on Salamander yesterday evening: had indicated, checked space and made the move. Private hire then accelerates and overtakes while I'm overtaking and with cars in the opposite lane. No space.

    On catching up at the lights (it's a car park on Seafield) I'm relaxed about it, but as always bewildered when their response is to talk about my lack of helmet or day-glo clothing...

    A helmet isn't going to do me much good when side struck by an arrogant idiot motorist. It's meant to protect my coupon from my own low speed mistakes, not indemnify a motorist from driving with care.

    It's bright sunlight and I'm wearing a bright orange t-shirt http://allofusfirst.bigcartel.com/product/alan-bisett-orange-tshirt - I think that's pretty sufficient for the time of day! Even in ninja black I'd be bloody hard to miss.

    Does anyone ever get "fair cop, sorry - I was wrong" as a reply?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    "Does anyone ever get "fair cop, sorry - I was wrong" as a reply?"

    Almost, once.

    I nearly got taken out on the roundabout at the bottom of Broughton Street (fairly common occurrence!). Caught up with the guy and 'complained'. He probably said sorry and then said "what do you want me to do about it?"

    "Stop driving".

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. Charlethepar
    Member

    I think calmac put it really well "Reckless stupidity that could kill you is likely to make you cross."

    I am not sure I agree with IWRATS's view that anger is ineffective as "Nobody has ever influenced me to do anything through a dsplay of anger. Quite the opposite." It seems to me that a really good display of anger is at least likely to be memorable, and thus may affect future behaviour at some sub-conscious level. If we are meek and mild and don't raise our voices, then that fits into many drivers' views of cyclists as marginal and virtually invisible.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. acsimpson
    Member

    "Reckless stupidity that could kill you is likely to make you cross."

    I guess that's why people get so worked up about the independence debate.

    (Tongue back out of check)
    Anger is natural, the trouble is that it can spill over into actions that are likely to be ill judged. If you can show the anger without becoming rude or aggressive it is likely to have a better effect. Swearing and posturing at a driver might cause a sub-conscious behaviour change but I wouldn't like to assume it will be a positive change, particularly as the assumption is that the driver doesn't fall into the "aware of their actions category" to start with.

    Are we less likely to challenge drivers who would apologise as they are likely to already have made a sorry gesture when they realise they've smidsy'd you?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I am not sure I agree with IWRATS's view that anger is ineffective

    Just talking from personal experience. I have been influenced by many behaviours, but anger has only ever made me scared, resentful or equally angry.

    I do not recommend passivity. I recommend assertion, or, if that's not possible, avoidance.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. calmac
    Member

    I think the point about anger is it's not a choice, it's an instinctive reaction. They say a person's automatic response to danger is fight or flight; I'm too big and slow for flight, but I'm built just right for fight and I can't help it, that's how I react. That wouldn't justify me making garments from the contents of another human being, of course, but if I'm going to react badly to a situation it's more likely to be an over-reaction than an under-reaction.

    Not good, not necessarily bad, just how it is. And it's often useful.

    I'm never angry if I get an apology or recognition of the mistake though - a raised hand and the 'sorry' grimace are always enough.

    As for efficacy, it really depends on the personality of the person on the receiving end. Does anger make them drive any better in future? Maybe. Some people are just more likely to see a cyclist in future and connect them with my red angry face. I accept that for some it makes them more dangerous, but with others I think it gives them a wee bit pause for thought and just makes them more aware of bikes in general.

    I can do zen in the abstract, but faced with the reality of someone doing something with potentially fatal consequences for another person, and being unapologetic about it, there's no way I'm not giving vent. I don't think I would assault anyone, but I could see myself pulling bits off of someone's car.

    I'm not recommending this kind of thing and I'm not proud of it, nor do I think anyone else should be. But I think we should cut ourselves some slack if we react to dangerous driving by becoming shouty and sweary, even if it's inarticulate.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. Focus
    Member

    I do get angry, and I'm neither proud nor ashamed of it.

    If I feel my personal space and therefore my safety has been invaded, I will react. It only takes your bike being rammed from behind and being thrown 20 feet ahead of it onto the road once to decide enough is enough, and that's happened to me. Nobody else gets close to doing that to me again without comeback.

    I'd love not to get worked up about dangerous or inconsiderate driving but then I'd love for there to be no dangerous or inconsiderate driving!

    My response will vary from a shake of the head, through tapping the side of my helmet, to contacting the side of the vehicle, shouting or confronting the driver, depending on the severity of the situation. Although I have years of ice hockey experience, I'm not built big and so I confront people at risk to myself, but as said earlier, your heart rate is going to be higher and the adrenaline is flowing, so there needs to be an outlet.

    I don't go looking for conflict but I also don't give a lot of leeway regarding bad road craft from others when it affects my safety or right to be unhindered on my journey.

    And it's not all one way - I thank motorists who actually wait on their side of the road at pinch points, or who allow me out of side roads (rare though that is). I return courtesy with courtesy.

    The problem is that some motorists thrive on conflict, even when stationary. Having two drivers park over my driveway in the space of a couple of minutes, and informing them politely but firmly they were in the wrong, one became insulting, whilst the other accused me of having an attitude. My attitude being presumably to point to the unobscured driveway he claimed he couldn't see he was blocking!!!

    "Does anyone ever get "fair cop, sorry - I was wrong" as a reply?"

    Once, as I posted here many months ago. In Fife, a car passed me way too close instead of changing lanes and I threw my hand up to indicate my displeasure. The car then turned off to the right, just where I was planning to go. And stopped. I approached it with some trepidation, expecting the same aggressive challenge I've experienced in the past.

    But the driver got out and apologised, saying he thought he'd given me enough room. I rode slowly past, accepting his apology and saying he needed to give leave more space. When he set off again, he went right over to the other side of the road to overtake me. Lesson learned, and hopefully one driver converted.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. minus six
    Member

    I don't go looking for conflict but I also don't give a lot of leeway regarding bad road craft from others when it affects my safety or right to be unhindered on my journey.

    That sums up my point of view.

    If I'm threatened by poor driving, I give it both barrels in response.

    I find that most dangerous drivers are also cowards, who haven't really thought through the potential consequences of their behaviour.

    Every couple of years or so, I'll encounter a proper jailbait psycho. Cleats are obviously a major disavantage in this situation, as swift resolution is unlikely. Its usually best to turn your anger into something unpredictably unhinged, so as to confuse them - a few non sequiturs, followed by a sharp exit.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. Uberuce
    Member

    "Does anyone ever get "fair cop, sorry - I was wrong" as a reply?"

    I have, but the devilish nature of confirmation bias is that I can't remember the details. I swear he was wearing a blue T-shirt. And yes, I know that makes me sound like Dougal remembering Sister Assumpta.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. barnton-to-town
    Member

    errr ... "jailbait psycho"???

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. Instography
    Member

    "Does anyone ever get "fair cop, sorry - I was wrong" as a reply?"

    Yeah, sort of. I've been passed by people and caught them at the lights, tapped on the window and when it's down simply said "that was too close". Generally, I get a sort of sullen acquiescence.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. minus six
    Member

    errr ... "jailbait psycho"???

    When an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, the likelihood of one of the parties doing time as a result, is greatly increased.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. Dave
    Member

    At Cramond this morning I encountered what I think may have been be one of the local legends of annual-snivel-to-the-EEN fame.

    Very ample gentleman with a dog on a lead stretching halfway across the road (I emphasise, *road*, not 2nd class citizen cyclepath).

    He was evidently quite exercised as he risked bawling at me to slow down, despite being in a position of some weakness. Numerous visions flashed through my head where I engaged him in robust debate, got up in his face and screamed about his dog, blah blah, I took the moral high ground and didn't so much as turn my head to acknowledge his existence.

    Headcam definitely helps with this. You know that everything you do is on tape, along with the actions of everyone else. I'm so much calmer than I used to be when my only recourse to being threatened had to be immediate.

    (There is a postscript to this tale - just around the corner was a car driving along the road and our speeds were very comparable. While others may try to impose special restrictions on bikes, I prefer to compare my riding with the social norms I enjoy when I drive).

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. cycletrain
    Member

    "Does anyone ever get "fair cop, sorry - I was wrong" as a reply?"

    Yeah, frequently when I was regularly cycling through town. Often from unlikely stereotypes - White van man, 4x4 lady and taxi driver.

    In most "close encounters" I was happy to be alive and didn't feel the need to start a self righteous indignatious rant as is often observed when road users come together. Maybe it was my air of "outer" calm that made it easier for the other party to acknowledge the incident and where appropriate apologise.

    Now maybe there was something in that "Niceway Code" that so many rubbished, and maybe there is truth about couteousy being one of the most underated contributions road users can make to road safety.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. gibbo
    Member

    Does anyone ever get "fair cop, sorry - I was wrong" as a reply?

    Sometimes. My issue is that their "Whoops! I didn't see you" is my life and death.

    Pulling out without bothering to look is damn dangerous. And, if they're truly sorry for doing that, they'd hand back their driving licenses.

    (Can you tell this happened to me earlier today? - lol)

    Posted 11 years ago #

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