CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
"Contractors reveal images of Haymarket tunnel work"
(23 posts)-
Posted 9 years ago #
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"The tunnels at Haymarket Station are being reinforced through the night by a 40-strong team of specialists to make sure they can support a major new complex of offices, cafes, bars and restaurants, 165 serviced apartments and a 320-space underground car park."
I know that for many years that gap site was used for car parking, but 320 spaces? Surely there is now a stronger case for removing more parking from George Street?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Walk from Haymarket to George Street? Can humans actually do that?
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Can humans actually do that?"
No, but they could get the tram!
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Crowriver
Didn't take me long to do some research and get some facts.
According to http://www.ncp.co.uk/find-a-car-park/car-parks/edinburgh-morrison-goods-yard/ the now closed car park had 415 spaces.
So the developers are reducing the number of parking spaces by more than 20%.
Presumably most of the spaces in the new development will be used by people and cars whose activities are related to the new development.
Please explain the relevance to George Street parking.
Posted 9 years ago # -
George Street's parking is one of the cited impediments to making it properly human-friendly. More parking nearby (St James Centre II, Morrison Yards) could be argued as a reason for not needing any/so much parking on George Street, were it only possible for people to walk short distances carrying washing machines.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"possible for people to walk short distances carrying washing machines"
Just need wheelbarrows to take them to the nearest tram stop.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Can humans actually do that?"
No, but they could get the tram!
Or the city could launch a Vélib'-style bike hire system. Like much of the town centre Haymarket to George Street is remarkably flat. Nice wide roads for installing segregated bike lanes on...
Posted 9 years ago # -
Morrison Yards is not near George Street.
Would anyone cycling to George Street lock their bike at MY ?
Would anyone travelling by bus to George Street get off at MY ?
Why do some people (above) suggest it for drivers ?
Cycle travel map says it is over a mile from MY to the middle of George Street.
Maybe posters should be happy that the developer is reducing the number of parking spaces at MY and that the council is currently experimenting with a new layout on George Street and that is no longer a through route which will obviously reduce traffic and will include a segregated cycle path (see other thread)
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Would anyone cycling to George Street lock their bike at MY ?"
No, but then cyclists aren't clogging up the streets, polluting or making the ambience of the place less pleasant for everyone else so there's no real need to restrict them.
"Would anyone travelling by bus to George Street get off at MY ?"
Don't know the bus routes well enough but it's what I'm supposed to do if I travel by train - get off at Haymarket and walk to Queen Street. I could get off at Waverley and walk but it's the same distance. I'm not saying they should extend the rail lines to George Street but many people can, and do, walk from near Morrison Yards to George Street. The little walk would do many people a lot of good. And a mile is no distance at all. I suppose I might reasonably ask why not for drivers?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Perhaps what is considered acceptable all depends on the formative years' experiences. When I was small and we went to The City to do some Shopping, we'd park at a Large Food Shop place near our appropriate incursion/escape route, to avoid unecessary urban driving. We would then walk, using our legs and feet, all over the City, including up some cobbleslope, carrying whatever we had felt the need to buy as we went. Before leaving, we'd do a Big Monthly Food Shop, usually at the shop whose car park we were still allowed to park in all day at the time. Of course, we hardly ever had to buy a washing machine as my parents had the same one from about 1975 to 1996.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Clearly I was naive in suggesting posters should be happy ;-)
I still think that linking George Street parking to the number of parking spaces at Morrison Yards is wrong and have shown that the fact that number of spaces is being reduced.
To again use facts I there are at least four car parks that are closer to George Street.
Posted 9 years ago # -
We didn't have Facts and Wrong when I was small, and Research was reserved for use in metropolises with populations greater than 200,000. There was only one public omnibus a day leaving the village, too.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I think the issue we confront here is one of preconceptions. Over the past half century or so, drivers of motor vehicles have become accustomed to the idea of driving as close as possible to wherever they want to go, reducing any perambulations on foot to the absolute minimum. Unfortunately, in the majority of urban situations this is not possible, as stationary motor vehicles are usually already occupying all the available parking spaces which happen to be very close to the destination. Hence the driver faces a choice: circulate for some considerable time on the surrounding streets hunting for an opportunity to poach a space another vehicle is leaving; or park the car further away in one of the numerous purpose built car parks on the perimeter of the city centre, then walk.
As the number of motor vehicles has increased, so the problems of congestion, resulting pollution, and parking problems have risen accordingly. Therefore the assumption that one can park right next to one's destination is as best flawed, at worst deluded. It has become more normal to park in a car park some distance away and then walk.
So there is every connection between parking space at Haymarket Yards (or for that matter, the St James Centre or Leith Street) and George Street. The proposal to remove or reduce parking on George Street is not at all unreasonable, given that overall parking provision in the city centre is set to increase (proposed to more than double at St James Centre, more than offsetting a slight reduction at Haymarket Yards). Why should the streets in the city centre continue to be blighted by parked motor vehicles cluttering up the place (and the associated prowling parking space hunters driving up and down)?
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Crowriver
Your original post refers to 320 parking spaces at Morrison Yards* and a desire to link this to a reduction of parking on George street.
In your opinion 320 is too much without knowing the ownership, purpose or user cost of these spaces and indeed without any research of what the capacity was of the previous car park. I informed you that therewas a reduction of over 20%. Do you think the car park should be bigger ?
I think that linking George Street parking to MY is a fallacy as it too far away and you agree with me by saying that drivers expect to park nearby. Car users are not exactly unique in wanting to limit the amount of walking to their destination
* Haymarket Yards is west of Haymarket Station and unrelated to the former Morrison Street Car Park.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Haymarket Yards is west of Haymarket Station and unrelated to the former Morrison Street Car Park.
Maybe this is where a misunderstanding has occurred. I was thinking of the car park adjacent/on op of the old public toilets on the corner of Morrison Street, at the eastern end of Haymarket. Is there still a car park there too?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Here's what I posted on the development of the old Morrison Street goods yard in another thread, four months ago:
"According to the transport assessment for the development, there were 450 spaces in the old car park. The new development will have 381 car parking spaces (244 as a public car park). Add in service trips generated by the new development (deliveries, staff travel etc) and there may well be an overall increase in traffic in the area when it is all open."
While there is reduction in public parking spaces, generally used by commuters, the new development is likely to generate additional traffic compared to its previous use as a car park, as hotels, offices and restaurants need deliveries and customers - which arrive by van/truck and car. I can't imagine anyone thinks that extra traffic at Haymarket, a congestion and air pollution hotspot, is a good idea.
Most cities that have reduced air pollution and increased modal share for walking and cycling have both improved the pedestrian/cycling environment and made driving more expensive/difficult. Part of this involves reducing the number of parking spaces in central areas.
I can't see why parking in George Street can't be removed completely. Many European cities have a pedestrianised city centre (e.g. Cologne, Malaga) and they are very successful. Are Scots really so different that they can't manage short walks, or hops on public transport, from car parks to their final destination. Isn't it worth finding out? After all - the benefits in better health outcomes and improved environments could be huge.
@Dangerous - perhaps you could let us know the benefits of letting people park right next to their final destination in Edinburgh city centre?
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Crowriver
Oops there are actually TWO former Morrison Street Car Parks.
1) Edinburgh Morrison Goods Yard http://www.ncp.co.uk/find-a-car-park/car-parks/edinburgh-morrison-goods-yard/
This is the one the original article refers to as it is above the railway tunnels and is where the new development is happening
2) There was one north west of the junction of Semple Street and Morrison Street. Don't know exact status but it was not successful and owner went into administration. I Think it's still derelict.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/futuristic-600-space-car-park-lies-empty-for-last-four-years-1-1252153"Haymarket Yards" is a street. The eastern end of Haymarket Yards is where the Trams "leave" Glasgow Road west of Haymarket station
Posted 9 years ago # -
I was thinking of 1) above, which indeed is the site covered in the Eyore News. Phew, glad that's cleared up!
From the article you posted:
Neil Greig (for it is he, -Ed.), head of policy in Scotland for the Institute of Advanced Motorists Motoring Trust, said: "We can't have 600 perfectly good parking spaces sitting in Edinburgh unused.
"I hope they find a solution as soon as possible as the pressures on parking in the city centre are going to grow and this seems like such a wasted opportunity."
The car park, next to the Edinburgh International Conference Centre (EICC), is at the rear of the Edinburgh One office block occupied by Scottish Widows.
Graham Bell, a spokesman for Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce, said: "It's such a wasted opportunity to have a car park of that size in the heart of the city's business district lying empty.
"You have to consider that the big car park at the bottom of Morrison Street will close shortly when the redevelopment begins there, so parking spaces in this part of the city will be at a premium.
"If there is no way of using the site as a car park then we need to look at other uses because it is a prime location."
Aye, how about a bicycle hub?
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Morningsider
Benefits to whom ? You asked an open question so the boundaries are not well defined.
I'll switch terminology here. There are positives and negatives to having car-parking near destinations in city centres. IMHO is most definitely not a simple issue.
Posted 9 years ago # -
From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Advanced_Motorists
Re IAM Motoring Trust
The stated objectives of the organisation are concerned with the undertaking of road safety research, the promotion of practical evidence-based policies to improve road safety, the advocacy of safer roads, drivers and vehicles, and the encouragement of responsible motoring.
Can anyone understand why the Scotsman asked Neil Greig for a quote ?
Can anyone remember using the car park ?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Dangerous - I wasn't setting you an exam question. I just wondered why you were supportive of retaining city centre parking spaces, which is a fairly rare view for a cycling forum. I wasn't trying to be snarky - just interested in why you thought this was a good idea.
I always try to understand why people hold the views they do, it allows me to critically assess my own opinions.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Can anyone understand why the Scotsman asked Neil Greig for a quote ?
Simply because he is always ready to give a quote at a moment's notice. He allows the jobbing journo to achieve their key goal of filling column inches quickly and efficiently.
[Will this do?]
Posted 9 years ago #
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