CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
"The thing that worries me is that these mostly concentrate on the reduction of hours part of the experimental proposals."
Yes, I formally objected to most bits, but didn't mention motorbikes.
I think the 'reality' is that there aren't that many motorbikes.
I suppose it's possible that the buslanes bit won't happen, and the motorbike bit does. I don't really think having motorbikes would be much of problem compared with the buslane proposals.
But I don't want either!
My objection is below...
I would like to object to the above traffic orders regarding changes to the operation of bus lanes.
There are several reasons for my objection:
1. Unclear of the rationale for the change
2. Mixed messages vs 20mph limits
3. Negative impact on vunerable road users
Rationale for change
It is very unclear to me why the change is being made. I have been unable to find any strong reasons to harmonise to part time. The measures of success noted in the report at August's Transport & Environment Committee are
1. It amends ineffective bus lanes, of which 5 were noted already to improve traffic flow.
2. It reduces confusion on the operating times.
I recognise that success measure 1 has some merit in the case of ineffective bus lane, but this is only in isolated cases.
I also recognise that harmonising operating times would eliminate the confusion, I just cannot see any strong reasons for harmonising to part time.
If Lothian buses are comfortable that the don't need buses outside of peak hours then there can be very little congestion that would be eleviated by have 2 lanes of unrestricted traffic. Why can they not be harmonised as 24/7 bus lanes or 7am-7pm as a minimum? What evidence was used to determine that part time is the right answer?
I understand that this ETRO is not impacting current parking arrangements so it is likely that off peak the bus lanes won't be free for traffic anyway, so why create uncertainty for drivers about whether they should be in the bus lane or not.
Mixed Messages
I applauded CEC's bold step to move the default speed limit in our city to 20mph This will make it a more pleasant place for us all to live. Roads are for people and recognising that a very significant percentage of the population live without access to a car, it is good see that CEC have deprioritised the private car rushing through our city in favour of quality of life of those that live here.
The proposed change goes completely against this. It encourages private car use to the detriment of others.
I'm sure you are aware of the illegal levels of air pollution in our city and the council's Local Travel Plan and Active Travel Action Plan which are trying solve this amongst other benefits. The changes proposed is not only contradict these plans, I cannot see how this will do anything other than increase the air pollution which our city and it's population suffer from.
Vunerable road users
I don't consider bus lanes to be cycle infrastructure as they are shared with buses and taxis that travel at differing speeds. They are however a small haven from general motor traffic that are useful on direct routes into the city. Having to share these lanes with general traffic makes them much less appealing to cyclists (as does negotiating parked vehicles). With the 20mph change reducing speeds on many of these routes there is a real danger that bus lanes will be used by impatient drivers trying to undertake other road users and put them in conflict with cyclists.
Having general traffic driving next to the pavement will also make walking less pleasant. This will be especially important during school home time which won't be covered by the part time operation of the bus lanes.
I'm also very concerned by letting motorbikes into bus lanes. Using bus lanes as a cyclist means I don't have to share it with other road users. It simply isn't possible for a taxi or bus to give sufficient space to pass whilst still in the lane. This means they have to wait until there is space in the outside lane to pass, meaning that you don't get buzzed by close passes. By letting motorcycles use it they will more likely to overtake whilst in the bus lane and not give sufficient space. This will increase the risk to cycling and make it less appealing.
In summary, I can only see negative impacts on vulnerable road users, limited benefits and very mixed messages of what CEC is trying to achieve.
Regards,
Mr Hank Chief
Not great, but as I haven't had much spare time it's mostly from the heart.
"
Dear Sir,
This is an objection to ETRO/14/38B (bus lane operational hours).
City of Edinburgh Council’s own Local Transport Strategy promises to prioritise buses and enhance bus lanes, in its presumption of favouring priority of buses and Trams over other motorised traffic. The LTS also states that the Council will continue to "maintain its bus lane network, review it regularly and extend it or enhance it where opportunities arise." The proposed Order appears to be strongly in favour of the private car driver, who is very largely responsible for congestion in the city, who adds to air pollution levels that are already too high, and who appears to be unable to read the traffic order signs that the Council has already provided in abundance.
I am firmly in favour of retaining all-day bus lanes. This is because they increase passenger confidence that buses will run to time.
All-day bus lanes also provide significant safety benefits—at all times of day—to people using bicycles. This is because the lanes help ensure that private motor vehicles are kept at a distance more of the time, and at all times of day provide the same benefit as to buses of avoiding congestion when it occurs. The city has a modest but very well used former rail network converted to cycle and walking paths, and bus lanes provide the next best thing in the urban environment, in which most people want to travel safely and efficiently. I would like the Council to upgrade the A8 peak-time bus lane to all-day status. By the Council's own arguments there is no disadvantage to bus efficiency, and every advantage to cycling safety.
The Council should be extremely careful to avoid encouraging further private car use on roads that at many times of day are at maximum capacity. It is not the Council's fault that private car drivers have repeatedly fallen foul of bus lane enforcement. In fact, I would like to see more bus lane enforcement, not just to generate funding to offset the cost of the trams but to act as a signal that the Council is serious about making the city a more livable place for everyone.
Yours faithfully,
Arellcat
"
I've thought long and hard about ETRO/14/38A. I want to object to it, as a regular cyclist, but as 'someone who uses a motorbike sometimes' than 'a biker' I still would like the advantage of avoiding congestion when offside filtering is impossible. The main hazard with motorbikes in town is greasy roads, when it is entirely possible to use up all of one's safety margin when braking sharply even from 10mph or 15mph. To leave 'even more' space generally invites car and van drivers into that space. Bus lanes offer the best opportunity for safe riding. And as chdot pointed out, I would tend to agree that there are more people cycling than biking, and I would say that they tend to do so in a manner that is a little more reasonable than bikers in London, who are all about 'making progress' through dense traffic, the likes of which Edinburgh can only dream about (so far).
"
Spokes CycleCampaign (@SpokesLothian)
17/02/2015 22:39
#BusLanes: Now a #publictransport objection too
http://www.spokes.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/SAPT-objection.pdf
@CyclingEdin @TransformScot @on_lothianbuses @LivingStreetsEd @edfoc
"
I received the sustrans e-newsletter today and it sets out what the council are proposing very clearly in one para, just what we have said here over a range of emails but in one summary. Also link to who to email. However, as today is the deadline, they are a bit late.
Done. Included common things as previously stated and mentioned that thing London did the other week as a vague prod towards positively allocating more roadspace to cycling.
Done. Yesterday.
I assume others have had a similar reply to what follows?
"I appreciate your concerns over cycling in the lanes out-with peak times but the lanes will still be operational during commuting hours and therefore no impact on cycling to and from work is anticipated. Should the change proceed it will change the hours of around 1/3 of lanes in the city as the rest are already on-peak hours only. While bus lanes have been used by cyclists, their predominant purpose is to ensure public transport flows throughout the city.
When this proposal went to city's transport forum (which includes Councillors from all parties and representatives of all modes of transport) it was decided that standardisation of the lane times would help make them simpler for drivers. It was felt that when standardising lanes it was more equitable to have bus lanes operating in peak times rather than have every lane operate 24/7 or as all day lanes.
This would not preclude the Council from continuing to invest in cycling lanes along key cycling routes in the City. These changes will be monitored to see if there is any impact on cyclist numbers and a report will come to committee 9 months after the change to assess the impacts."
Should we be doing anything else at the moment, or is it a matter of waiting to see what the outcome will be (I'm not hopeful)?
talk of this 'going to the travel forum' is a bit misleading. yes it was raised, butas far as i recall - and my memory is not great - with no prior warning, papers, or discussion.
We did discuss it briefly in small groups. Most discussions could see few problems. Spokes rep tried to raise issues, but since he was only in one group, I don't think most people necessarily understood the issues (as you know i've changed my position on this only after some months of reflection). Motorbike association reps came to that meeting and expressed much support. There is always pressure there for consensus, so no strong opposition emerged.
I'm not saying that reaching consensus is a bad thing, but it needs full reflection before, and reps need to have a sense of what their respective orgs feel about it.
The only (admittedly rather vague) positive of all this is the heightened importance it places on putting in segregated cycle facilities on arterial roads (in line with the Council's own street design guidance...).
How's that for glass 1% full thinking? ;-)
This is (just) one example of why (all day) bus lanes are important to cyclists.
Leith Street is FAR from 'cycle friendly'
Getting into the middle lane to go on to Bridges/Princes Street is never 'easy'. There's always someone 'desperate' to get to Calton Road. The bus lane indicates to all but the most stupid drivers that you are in the right lane. Of course illegally parked taxis (quite common here) don't help!
Having got past the junction on this steep hill, some degree of 'safety' knowing that most vehicles will keep to the right hand lane.
These were taken at 4pm today on this 'key arterial route'. Where is the "congestion" and all the drivers confused about bus lane times??
Here's 19 seconds of car park part time bus lane at 4pm today.
The cars are probably completely legally stopped. But they force cyclists to swerve in and out, or just take the lane. Part-time bus lanes are not and should never be mistaken for cycle infrastructure.
They just provide cheap parking for people too lazy or cheap to find a proper spot.
There is clearly no need whatsoever for these lanes to be made available for driving in, but neither do they provide anything resembling cycle infrastructure.
There is, however, no reason why this under-utilised space oughtn't to be made into a proper segregated bike lane. that way it would facilitate traffic flow, rather than subsidise a few van owners and taxi drivers.
Oh, and I went back past after 4 and there were even more there. as is usual for edinburgh, actual enforcement is also part of the problem.
Thing is... changes to parking restrictions were never part of the proposals.
So even if we convince them that full time bus lanes are a good idea they will still be full of parked cars.
Really need strong leadership here to make the bus lanes really useful for us cyclists.
"Really need strong leadership here to make the bus lanes really useful for us cyclists."
I disagree. We need strong leadership to demand cycle infrastructure, not inadequate half-measures.
From the response I got
The main users of the bus lane network are bus passengers and in 2014 Lothian Buses carried 118.4 million bus passengers, an increase of 3 million over the previous year’s figure. Certain other classes of vehicle are also permitted to use bus lanes e.g. taxis and cycles. Bus lanes provide additional safety benefits to cyclists by segregating them from general traffic.
Between February and April 2014, bus lane surveys were undertaken at various times of day at a number of locations throughout the city. The surveys generally showed that at most of these locations there was little or no delay to buses during off-peak periods; that is between 9:30am and 4:00pm, Monday to Friday. This appeared to indicate that all-day bus lanes, offer little additional operational benefit to buses, compared to peak periods lanes, under normal traffic conditions.
So it acknowedges that there is no offpeak congestion and that cyclists get a benefit from bus lanes but does put the 2 together to think that the benefit of offpeak bus lanes for cyclists outweighs the limited benefit of normal traffic on having an extra lane when there is no congestion.
Just a reminder -
"
Thousands of traffic fines issued to drivers in Edinburgh are to be cancelled, it has been confirmed.
The move follows complaints from motorists after five cameras were installed on bus lanes last month.
"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-18187457
When did saying 'that looks like something out of 1984' go out of fashion??
"outweighs the limited benefit of normal traffic on having an extra lane when there is no congestion"
(I mean the truth of that not the fact you wrote it!)
@srd - I take your point. Even if we got full time, parking free bus lanes, it would still wouldn't be great cycle infrastructure, even if it would be considerably better than we have now.
As we know from CHDot's article above, drivers can't be trusted to keep out of them and we can't be seen to penalise OLA drivers for their momentary lapse when they decide that the rules of the road don't apply to them.
@hankchief yes, but part-time ones are even worse because they're a total waste of space and benefit no one.
"
It has come to our attention that there was an error in the title and operating times stated in the previously advertised ETRO/14/38B which primarily relates to the bus lanes on Great Junction Street and North Junction Street. Therefore, it is necessary to re-advertise the proposal relating to these roads.
"
Don't agree that part time lanes are useless. I generally commute out of peak hours and quite frankly almost no one seems to drive in the A8 bus lanes. I have them pretty much to myself. I think people are over-reacting to this proposal TBH.
"almost no one seems to drive in the A8 bus lanes"
But that's the point.
While there is any doubt about operating hours, most drivers will stay away.
IF it's known they are all p/t, drivers will use them more.
I think you are being overly optimistic about the average driver's intelligence. There is no doubt about the bus lane hours, there are big blue signs with the hours of operation on them. If the road says 'bus lane' most people will avoid them. The information that the hours have changed simply won't get through to the vast majority of people.
I usually don't drive in the part time bus lanes when they are out of operation. Some reasons:
- I don't want the hassle of having to filter back into the outside lane when the road invariably goes back to one lane or the left hand lane becomes a left turn or bus only lane;
- there's going to be a parked car or bus in a bus stop at some point ahead, which will negate a lot of the benefits;
- I'm not in *that* much of a rush;
- my training as a Brit says that scooting up the inside would be akin to queue jumping so it's anathema to me;
- I like an easy life.
There is no doubt about the bus lane hours, there are big blue signs with the hours of operation on them.
It may be because I only drive infrequently* but I find in reality it can be quite hard to read those signs. Particularly since I tend to take notice of them speed limit thingies and if I am in the inside lane then people are always flying past me in the outside lane making it hard to move over if I need to. I am then faced with having to try and read all the detail on the sign and then be potentially driving along in an operational bus lane for some time while I try to get in the outside lane. Or I could just start trying to move over as soon as I see that there is a bus lane coming up.
Plus all the stuff PS said.
*And I don't think I am actually that bad a driver since I can easily do stuff that other people who presumably drive a lot find impossible such as operating the indicators, stopping at stop lines, keeping junctions clear and so on.[/ranty]
Hmm. Them roolz is pretty clear. You are meant to stick in the L/H lane unless you are overtaking.
Min: You can tell by the size. Part time is smaller than the full time as the full time also includes 2 extra lines for Saturday restrictions.
@stiltskin is correct. Rule 160;
keep to the left, unless road signs or markings indicate otherwise. The exceptions are when you want to overtake, turn right or pass parked vehicles or pedestrians in the road
I don't follow this rule when using my automobile and a non-functioning bus lane is available. Not sure why not.
I *am* usually overtaking parked cars and vans in the RH lane. And I subscribe to the view that predictable driving is the safest driving: staying in the parking free lane is predictable and helps traffic flow due to no need to move into another stream of vehicles.
I have been wondering if given the bus lanes TROs adverts for Gt Junction Street and Nth Junction Street have been messed up by council officials, will the public have to submit separate comments/objections for these, given they thought their comments would apply to all the changes listed?
It seems to me that would be really unfair.
Its already bad enough that public expenditure is being wasted by the need to re-run these advertisements, let alone a whole new round of submissions having to be considered by officials. Personally I think it would be fair if those comments/objections that were meant to apply to the whole set of listed bus lanes were considered from the outset to apply to these specific locations too.
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