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Rangifer & Stephan (@RangiRevo)
30/05/2015 19:25
@adamrmcvey Report is dire reading. Objections just dismissed, you made up mind @CyclingEdin @Edinburgh_CC @Chris_Boardman @SpokesLothian
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CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Bus lanes to change
(321 posts)-
Posted 8 years ago #
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From report
"
3.8 The trial to change all day bus lanes into peak periods bus lanes will replicate the road conditions that are currently experienced by cyclists in the existing peak periods bus lane corridors (approximately 60% of the bus lane network). The Council will monitor road traffic collisions throughout the trials to ensure that any serious concerns over the safety of cyclists, or any other user groups, are identified and addressed quickly.
"
So CEC only taking notice of crashes - not 'danger' (perceived or real) and possibilities of people being discouraged from cycling?
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3.9 An initial analysis of the last five years of complete data (2009 to 2013) showed that in the interpeak period and on Saturdays there was no significant difference in the number or severity of accidents involving cyclists between all day bus lanes and peak periods bus lanes.
"
PERHAPS this is due to the drivers 'uncertain about bus lane operating times' keeping out of them!!
Posted 8 years ago # -
@adamrmcvey "characterisation"? That's a quote from committee report
PWNED. I notice there's no comeback to that...
Posted 8 years ago # -
3.9 An initial analysis of the last five years of complete data (2009 to 2013) showed that in the interpeak period and on Saturdays there was no significant difference in the number or severity of accidents involving cyclists between all day bus lanes and peak periods bus lanes.
I don't really understand how this analysis was possible, without data that (as far as I know) nobody collects.
Even if the council do have accurate exposure data, looking at accident severity is simplistic because it won't capture the people who aren't cycling because they can't enjoy the protection of a bus lane.
Of course, this isn't news to whoever prepared the report. An exercise in lip service at best.
Posted 8 years ago # -
If that statement is accurate the conclusion I would draw is that the Council's current setup of peak/non peak bus lanes is correct. The ones which need additional protection have it in place already and those that are safe enough not to need it don't.
Posted 8 years ago # -
2009-2013 is 4 years, unless they actually mean 2009/10 to 2013/14?
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Even if the council do have accurate exposure data, looking at accident severity is simplistic because it won't capture the people who aren't cycling because they can't enjoy the protection of a bus lane."
Quite.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"
I am writing to request a deputation to the above Committee.
This would be a joint deputation of myself from Spokes and David Spaven from Living Streets Edinburgh.
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Posted 8 years ago # -
"
John Lauder (@John_Lauder)
01/06/2015 23:08
I can't see any sensible/rational reason for @Edinburgh_CC to change rules on bus lanes @SpokesLothian @CyclingEdin #sustrans #whosecity?"
Posted 8 years ago # -
"
They claimed drivers were being discriminated against and that they shouldn’t be ‘punished’ for using their cars. The Tories’ motion put before the council - which was defeated by the city’s ruling Labour group - stated that if ‘there was no discernible benefits’ to bus lanes following a review, a permanent suspension should be agreed.
"
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/bus-lanes-should-most-manchester-9331751
Posted 8 years ago # -
Transport and Environment Committee - 2 June 2015 - Tue, 02nd Jun 2015 - 10:00 am - City of Edinburgh Council Webcasts
http://www.edinburgh.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/149065
Posted 8 years ago # -
LIVE
Legal advice not to take Spokes deputation because it's about a TRO
Lesley Hinds says 'accept legal advice'
Nigel Bagshaw challenged
Chas Booth saying 'different for ETRO - have heard similar before'
LH 'no deputation asked for on bus lanes previously'
No-one from Legal Services present!
Committee Clerk says asked legal dept said 'no diff for ETROs'.
Deputation not taken.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Nigel Bagshaw talking to Green amendment.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Deputation not taken."
shocking.
Posted 8 years ago # -
NB 'Driver confusion'
'Extend hours instead?'
Ewan Kennedy Policy Planning Manager -
'Limited evidence which is why we want to get more through experiment'
LH says Transport Forum (and others) thought best option. T&I Committee agreed previously.
NB - concerned about pollution for pedestrians and HGVs in buslanes.
EK - engaged with Spokes and Living Streets
CHas Booth 'engaged but have you listened?'
CB 'not just about collisions but also proximity'
EK 'will be interviewing cyclists'
LH 'all previously unanimously agreed by committee' 'primary point of buslanes for bus users' '24 hours would affect businesses' 'no objections from bus users' 'buslanes, like parking never get agreement' 'genuinely believe best balance for all road users'
Adam McVey 'debate on Twitter bit intellectualised'
Talking about Leith Walk - don't know if he is confusing with concerns about Leith STREET.
Now saying if trams go down Leith Walk it will be transport corridor - does that mean no buses or move bus stops??
Also says 'Green logic' is that all roads other than the 31 steers to be changed are unsafe.
NB not suggesting no loading if 24 hour buslanes. 'Equitable use of road - car oriented system, trying to move away from that' 'shame that Spokes weren't allowed to make presentation. Main point in written submission - against LTS policies - proper consultation in Glasgow, part-time least popular option'
CB 'report says "loss of amenity to cyclists", can't just ignore results of consultation' (objections). Who are streets for "people or metal boxes" pedestrians should be top of that hierarchy' 'previously system of "predict and provide" does Adam want to go back to that?'
LH 'Greens contradictory on consultation' 'look at places like South Gyle Access - makes sense peak-time only.' 'Look at Calder Road - people walking on it to get bus stops'
Er...
LH
'Didn't realise cars didn't have people in them'
Amendment defeated 13-2
Posted 8 years ago # -
"1.1.6 notes that before and after surveys will be undertaken and used to inform
the evaluation of the two trials;
1.1.7 notes that consultation with stakeholders will continue throughout the
trials;
1.1.8 notes that the findings of the before and after surveys will be discussed
with organisations representing bus lane users before they are reported to
Committee; "Might I move that we all note and collect evidence of any unpleasant off-peak bus-lane interactions in formerly all-day bus lanes during the experiment for provision to the Committee?
Posted 8 years ago # -
Adam McVey 'debate on Twitter bit intellectualised'
As opposed to being a bit dumb?
Posted 8 years ago # -
Might I move that we all note and collect evidence of any unpleasant off-peak bus-lane interactions in formerly all-day bus lanes during the experiment for provision to the Committee?
That should apply for those experiences experienced while driving a car, being driven in a bus, whilst conveying oneself on foot etc as well.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"As opposed to being a bit dumb?"
You'll have to ask him - on Twitter!
Posted 8 years ago # -
Sorry, I have been unwell and not paying attention. Thats my excuse but there is an element of TLDR.
Can someone please give me a summary?
Posted 8 years ago # -
Nelly the whole thing?
Council think helping by making bus lanes things cars can go in outside peak times. Was pointed out to council that outside peak times Edinburgh quite quiet for traffic and bus lanes can be left for buses and bikes. Council has pushed on with experiment to see what difference letting cars into bus lanes at non peak times will make.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I think you might even summarise developments as:
Spokes: "No".
CCEers: "No".
CEC: "Yes, because cars."Posted 8 years ago # -
Long (detailed) version.
http://www.spokes.org.uk/2015/06/bus-lanes-150-objections-rejected
Posted 8 years ago # -
Thanks all, helpful......unlike the experiment which will simply confuse all parties.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Council has pushed on with experiment to see what difference letting cars into bus lanes at non peak times will make.
An experiment to see how many more people can be killed, presumably. Are they trying to drum up extra business for the crematoria?
Posted 8 years ago # -
I really can't get my head around their "logic". I'm paraphrasing here but it seems to be..
This change is required so that cars can us bus lanes when they need them least.
Don't worry though it wont impact anyone on the pavement as the cars will stick in the general traffic lane just like they do now.
As far as I can see the only difference they are really touting is that the lanes will become carparks.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Well, if Leith Walk in the last 5 years can be considered a test bed for this new policy it's going to be a roaring success for the 'I'll just be a minute' double parkers and traders whose car must be in sight of the shop
Posted 8 years ago # -
While I'm against the change / test I wonder how much difference there will actually be. I can only base this on my own experiences, but basically I use a few bus lanes on a very regular basis, which are all part time. Obviously YMMV.
Milton Road
Eastbound outwith operational hours most people still stay out of it (driving I've had cars suddenly swerve out in front of me when they realise there's a bus lane and they haven't noticed the signs). Also the chance of being caught behind a bus anyway. Westbound there do tend to be parked cars outwith hours, so again most stay out, and there's space to ride around the parked cars.Jock's Lodge
Whether in or out of hours people queue in the lane eastbound for the lights (one of the common arguments against lanes 'but you really expect me to stay out of the lane until 20 yards before I need to move left? But then there will be a queue that I can't get into').Willowbrae Road
There's usually someone parked in them, though it's clear now and again. I'll drive in the bus lane when it's out of hours - astonishing (not really) how many people think that road has a 40 or 50 limit. On the bike parked cars car easily be passed still in the lane, and as with Milton Road there's not much driving in it (except me it appears, but I'd hope if there was a cyclist in the lane ahead I'd drive well around them).London Road
People seem to stay out of them save when turning. kaputnik may have a better view though than my passing by every now and then.Of course, all of the above is based on people not really knowing when they operate, and I think most people do actually take the easy option of assuming they're always operational. If it becomes common knowledge that all bus lanes are only peak times there may be a change in driving attitude. What I actually hope happens is people park in them. Makes them unusable by a car, and 'usually' there's plenty space to go round on a bike.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Calder Road Out side of posted hours tends to only be used by folk undertaking, rarely <40mph.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"it becomes common knowledge that all bus lanes are only peak times there may be a change in driving attitude."
This is the key.
And it's really not worth this change just to 'see what happens'.
How long will it take before 'everyone' realises the hours have changed?
How many extra car/car 'interactions' will there be due to lane changing by those who think it's better/necessary to stay left when possible and/or those doing undertaking legitimately(? before turning left) or illegitimately when 'ignorant' drivers stay out of the bus lane.
BUT my real concern is Leith Street and Earl Grey Street (any others?) where there is often quite a lot of off-peak traffic.
Posted 8 years ago #
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