CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

A8/Corstorphine Road / Kaimes Road Toucan Crossing?

(39 posts)
  • Started 3 years ago by HankChief
  • Latest reply from HankChief

  1. HankChief
    Member

    I spotted in the papers for the Transport committee that there is plans to put in a pedestrian crossing on the A8 Corstorphine Rd/St John's Road by Kaimes Road.

    I've just sent a note to the cycling team to see if it could be made into a toucan crossing as there isn't any easy way to legally cross the A8 anywhere to the East of the Jaguar garage on Glasgow Road and Corstorphine Hill gets in the way of a direct route into town.

    The alternative options all involve doglegs and difficult right turns on the A8. (I.e. Templeton Rd/Featherhall Av, Clermiston Rd/Station Rd).  

    Kaimes Road to Traquair Alley is a similar dogleg route.  If it could be connected by a toucan and a bit of shared use pavement, this would make a big help in connecting the Pinkhill railway with the quiet streets to the North of the A8.

    We'll see what they say...

    Posted 3 years ago #
  2. Stickman
    Member

    Thanks for putting that request in HankChief. I live very close to this spot so it will be a very welcome addition. Is there any indication on when it will be done?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  3. HankChief
    Member

    2014/15 according to Appendix4 of the Paper

    Posted 3 years ago #
  4. Stickman
    Member

    Ah, interesting. I'll look at this document in more detail later.

    In my response to the 20mph consultation I suggested that St John's Road should be 20mph out beyond the zoo and past Pinkhill. If this was to happen along with the new crossing then the area would be far more pleasant.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "If this was to happen along with the new crossing then the area would be far more pleasant."

    And if anyone says 'that'll cause the traffic to slow down/back up/cause more pollution/blah blah needs to be reminded that there is too much traffic trying to use a road not designed for it - perhaps single occupancy vehicles (except bicycles!) should be banned!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  6. Kenny
    Member

    I suggested that St John's Road should be 20mph out beyond the zoo and past Pinkhill

    But that would mean I'd need to slow down when cycling along it! ;)

    Posted 3 years ago #
  7. acsimpson
    Member

    "But that would mean I'd need to slow down when cycling along it! ;)"

    Only if you're cycling dangerously according to the consultation.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  8. HankChief
    Member

    The full list of improved crossings for 2014/15 are

    Signalised Crossings

    London Street at Drummond Place
    Corstorphine Road at Kaimes Road
    Dalry Road at Dalry Place

    Refuge Islands

    West Granton Road opposite 26 Granton Mill Crescent
    Myreside Road at Footbridge
    Ferniehill Drive opp No 16
    East Fettes Avenue at Broughton High School opposite entrance to Inverleith Park
    Cranley Nursery at Buckstone on Braid Road
    Pilrig Street at Cambridge Avenue
    Colinton Road at Pedestrian Exit from Napier University

    Posted 3 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    If that's the full list of signalised crossings it's pretty shocking.

    I can understand why some people might want a crossing at Drummond Place, but there really aren't many people wanting to cross.

    There's a fair bit of traffic - by New Town standards - but I suspect it's mostly rat-running.

    There might be an issue of speed (or realistically "perception of').

    Suitable build-outs and some restriction on DP effectively being a large roundabout might be more effective (and cheaper).

    Posted 3 years ago #
  10. HankChief
    Member

    According to the detail in the paper (link in 3rd post - above), the London Street/Drummond Place location has a 85th percentile speed above 30mph.

    Of course once the 20mph plans get rolled out, then speeds willshould be reduced.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    "the London Street/Drummond Place location has a 85th percentile speed above 30mph."

    In which case, all the more reason for a kerb buildout (first?)

    Posted 3 years ago #
  12. SRD
    Moderator

    pretty sure that's the whole list...

    wonder if its worth asking for dalry rd at dalry place to be a toucan? is theoretically on the 'mostly offroad' link from haymarket to meadows/george square etc

    Posted 3 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    'Simply' making the junction from Gt. King St. into 'no left turn' would make a LOT of difference - for almost no money.

    If London Street is near the top of the list it must have some very good councillors!!!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  14. HankChief
    Member

    Locations Removed From Priority List

    Comiston Road at Comiston Place
    Removed as unable to construct a crossing point at this location due to lack of support for removal of parking for shops.

    East Hermitage Place at Somerset Place
    Removed as unable to construct a crossing point at this location due to width of road and existing bus stop locations.

    Liberton Brae at Orchardhead Road
    Removed as unable to construct a crossing point at this location due to property accesses.

    Dean Park Crescent, between Comely Bank Ave and Queensferry Road
    Removed as unable to construct a crossing point at this location as it is deemed unsafe.

    Locations Which Failed to Meet the Priority List Criteria

    Joppa Road at Coillesdene Drive (at existing traffic island)
    Current Island meets crossing demand, did not meet criteria for upgrade (>1) to a puffin crossing.

    Duncan Place @ Duke Street
    Low score, failed to meet criteria (>0.3)

    Newcraighall @ Fort roundabout (by Craigmillar Community Arts Centre) - existing island
    Low score, failed to meet criteria (>0.3)

    Bellevue Road @ Macdonald Road
    Low score, failed to meet criteria (>0.3)

    Murrayfield Dirve at Murrayfield Road
    Low score, failed to meet criteria (>0.3)

    Braid Road at Braid Hills Road (at existing traffic island)
    Low score, failed to meet criteria (>1) to upgrade existing islands to a puffin crossing.

    Braid Hills Road at Comiston Road (at existing traffic island)
    Low score, failed to meet criteria (>1) to upgrade existing islands to a puffin crossing.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    "unable to construct a crossing point at this location as it is deemed unsafe"

    Classic.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  16. Greenroofer
    Member

    Hmm. New refuge on Myreside Road. That means that a hitherto straight bit of wide road that was reasonably non-hazardous (but bumpy) will now have a traffic island in the middle that I will have to negotiate beside all the monster 4x4's from Watsons...

    Refuges are good for pedestrians but not so good for cyclists.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    "Bellevue Road @ Macdonald Road
    Low score, failed to meet criteria (>0.3)"

    That's by Broughton Primary School.

    I wonder if "Low score" means 'not many peds' - except at school times(?)

    Posted 3 years ago #
  18. HankChief
    Member

    @chdot - it's based on pv2 values

    The base data which is used to assess if a location is suitable for a crossing is what is known as the PV2 value. This is a nationally recognised value that indicates the number of passing vehicles and pedestrians. Pedestrian and vehicle counts are taken over the peak hours of a week day between both 0700hrs to 1000hrs and 1500hrs to 1800hrs, and avoid any school holidays or outside factors which may affect results. This base PV2 value is then adjusted to take account of local factors such as the age of those crossing, the composition of passing traffic, the number of pedestrian incidents and the number of trip-attractors such as schools, doctors’ surgeries, shops etc.

    Bellevue had a result of 0.006 before any adjustments, whereas London Street had 0.681.

    Don't know how they calc it and whether they just pick a single day. Wonder how they deal with people who would cross if it was safe to do so, but don't because they can't.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  19. HankChief
    Member

    PV2 is simpler than I first thought.

    Pedestrian volumes (/100) * Vehicular volumes (/1000) * vehicular volumes (/1000) = pv2

    Posted 3 years ago #
  20. Chug
    Member

    Refuge at "Myreside Road at Footbridge". So what's the footbridge for? If it's "private", wouldn't simply opening it to the public be cheaper (and safer) than using cyclists as de-facto traffic calming?

    Myreside is one of the least favourite parts of my commute. Car speeds regularly up to ca. 40 mph and far too many overtakes around the blind bend at the railway bridge - even when I've taken primary.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  21. Snowy
    Member

    So that's a list of ten modifications.

    I'm sure these are all deserving cases.

    But so few?

    If that's the list for a year, that's 5 weeks to construct each one.

    Is this a single one man team?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  22. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    I'm fairly astonished that another ped crossing is proposed for London Street - there's one at the other end near the roundabout, there'll probably be less than 100m between the two. And neither of them will be on the desire line for peds (Broughton St->Bellevue & Scotland St->Dublin St).

    Buildouts to calm the ratrunners would be a better, more useful AND cheaper solution IMO - they should do the bottom of Dublin St onto Drummond Place while they're at it (now that really is a nightmare to cross - 85th %ile speed of 30+ is something I could believe there). But what do I know...

    Posted 3 years ago #
  23. HankChief
    Member

    Heard back from CEC that they are considering making the A8/Kaimes Road crossing a Toucan.

    Let's hope they do.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  24. HankChief
    Member

    So Pedestrian Crossings are going back to the Transport Committee next week.

    Full Committee Papers

    Paper 7.4 Pedestrian Crossing Prioritisation

    The lucky locations to get a crossing are (as before)

    Signalised Crossings

    * London Street at Drummond Place
    * Corstorphine Road at Kaimes Road
    * Dalry Road at Dalry Place

    Refuge Islands

    * West Granton Road opposite 26 Granton Mill Crescent
    * Myreside Road at Footbridge
    * East Fettes Avenue at Broughton High School opposite entrance to Inverleith Park
    * Cranley Nursery at Buckstone on Braid Road
    * Pilrig Street at Cambridge Avenue
    * Colinton Road at Pedestrian Exit from Napier University

    Newly added to the list

    * Crewe Road North at junction with Pilton Avenue
    * Telford Road at Telford Gardens
    * Great Junction Street
    * Ferry Road at Silverknowes Neuk
    * Ferry Road between Dudley Avenue and Summerside Place
    * South Gyle Crescent, 150m south of junction with Redheughs Avenue
    * Ocean Drive - Between exit from BHS and Roundabout

    No news on what form of crossing will be installed at Corstorpine Road / Kaimes Road.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  25. HankChief
    Member

    Many other sites were assess but didn't make the grade

    One particular one that is frustrating me is Maybury Road at Craigs Road, which is included in the ATAP as a route for the Family Cycle Network (although not until 2020).

    Streetview

    It's a 40mph dual carriageway with a very narrow divide in the middle. The nearest proper crossing is 0.5miles away at the Casino. People cross there to get back from the bus stop on the West side and to access the open countryside.

    I hate crossing it on my own, but as you can imagine it especially tricky if you have kids / buggy or with a bike as there is no dropped kerbs and the narrow central refuge is tricky to fit onto and unpleasant/unsafe to wait at.

    The previous assessment from a few years ago had a low score mainly because not many people use it to cross - not a surprise given the description above. But as they say - you don't assess where to build a bridge by counting the number swimming across.

    Since then Cala have finished build at the old SASA site on Craigs Road, including several blocks of flats. It has been noticeable that there is many more people crossing there.

    So I was pleased when CEC reassessed the traffic & pedestrian flow and it scored 1.135 which is normally enough to get a signalised crossing, but because it's a dual carriageway it needs to be above 2.

    It does the beg the question as to what it will take to get a crossing put in. A serious RTC?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    "London Street at Drummond Place"

    As discussed above, this is just a bad idea - especially when CEC doesn't have nearly enough money budgeted for crossings.

    From a cycling point of view refuges tend to be an extra hazard.

    "

    * Myreside Road at Footbridge

    "

    For those who can't be bothered to use the bridge?

    "

    * East Fettes Avenue at Broughton High School opposite entrance to Inverleith Park

    "

    Mmm, where there is some dodgy cycle provision?

    "

    * Cranley Nursery at Buckstone on Braid Road

    "

    Wonder if that will be big enough for purpose (wonder how many people walk to nursery?)

    "

    * Pilrig Street at Cambridge Avenue

    "

    Hope that's a comprehensive enough scheme to improve cycle access through the bollards.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  27. kaputnik
    Moderator

    It does the beg the question as to what it will take to get a crossing put in. A serious RTC?

    See your earlier;

    * South Gyle Crescent, 150m south of junction with Redheughs Avenue

    That's exactly why a crossing is going in here, after someone was killed here about 2-3 years back crossing the road on their way to work. No crossing on it for its entire length.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  28. wingpig
    Member

    "...wonder how many people walk to nursery?"

    Maybe it's for people who have to park on the other side of the road as it's so busy.

    Are the scores for the crossings being revised in light of the revised 20mph plans or do they not affect it?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  29. cb
    Member

    ""...wonder how many people walk to nursery?"

    Maybe it's for people who have to park on the other side of the road as it's so busy."

    A lot of the road crossers are definitely people who have parked on the other side (possibly/probably) because they are heading south in the morning), but I think there will be quite a lot walking in from Buckstone too.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  30. Fountainbridge
    Member

    "what it will take to get a crossing put in"

    Developer contributions that need to be spent in the local area.

    Agree the Myreside Road one is very obscure. I'm guessing as part of Royal Edinburgh development they had a section 75 agreement where they have to put money in to local traffic improvements. Watsons tried to pay for a signalised crossing to be put in but was rejected, then they tried a mini roundabout, then they gave up and built a bridge (about £600k's worth).

    The London street one is also obscure. From what I remember very low levels of traffic. If there are issues crossing the road probably better to narrow the road at strategic points. Was the traffic study done during the tram diversions I wonder???

    Posted 3 years ago #

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