Marchmont to King's Buildings consultation « CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum

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Marchmont to King's Buildings consultation

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Started 9 years ago by algo
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algo
Member

Hello,

I couldn't find this referenced in a post already - apologies if it already exists. I got this through the post yesterday:

you can find the consultation info here:

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20135/cycling_projects/1138/marchmont_to_kings_buildings_cycle_route

I approve of the "early start" signals, but the cycle lanes on Marchmont Road are hopelessly flawed as a design as you are indicated to ride exactly in the door zone. The junction with Marchmont Road to Kilgraston Road is really narrow as you enter Kilgraston road and I'm interested to see how they cope with that.

I'd be interested to know what other CCE folk thought - I might have missed the initial consultation on this...

Posted 9 years ago #
amir
Member

"The junction with Marchmont Road to Kilgraston Road is really narrow as you enter Kilgraston road"

It's also has a rather tricky surface if I remember rightly

Posted 9 years ago #
algo
Member

@amir - indeed but I *thnk* that is currently getting sorted out...

Posted 9 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"but I *thnk* that is currently getting sorted out..."

Indeed -

Posted 9 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

so, no segregation (light or otherwise), no mandatory lanes. no lanes behind car parking. *possibly* a 'door zone' buffer between car parking and bike lane? (can't tell from diagrams).

instead we're getting lanes moved out from under parking, to next to parking?

only good point is the light trial.

Posted 9 years ago #
amir
Member

Yes, the light trial will be interesting. Certainly going up Blackford Avenue is a little nerve wracking, owing to the narrowing due to parking.

Posted 9 years ago #
cb
Member

Apart from the advanced lights the 'big' change seems to be at the Kilgraston / Grange Loan junction where southbound traffic will forced to turn left into Grange Loan.

However cyclists get a wee cut through which would let them effectively u-turn on Grange Loan.

So a cyclist who wanted to head south on Kilgraston and then west on Oswald would have to an extra wiggle through this junction and then pull out onto Kilgraston again.

But some cyclists will probably end up going round the wrong side of the refuge to save time.

It's a horrible junction currently so good that something is proposed, but is this the best solution?

Another biggish change is the change of priority at the Kilgraston/Oswald junction.

See the following PDFs:

- Blackford Road to Grange Loan
- Grange Loan to Oswald Road

Posted 9 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

thanks CB - I thought I had looked most of the pdfs, but clearly missed the two most important ones.

that is interesting. I think I will have to cycle through it to figure it out. I always get confused when I go through there (usually east-west).

can't immediately seen any improvement for cyclists. but possibly no detriment either?

Posted 9 years ago #
algo
Member

I often get close passes going uphill on Kilgraston - I'm not the fastest admittedly, but being uphill the general speed is quite low - it's a narrow bit of road, but I still think that section would do well from a segregated cycle-lane - there's no parking spaces to disrupt there and it would make cycling there a lot safer in my opinion.

Equally as amir says the section uphill from Blackford Avenue can be quite tricky on account of the parked cars and speed difference between cyclists and cars. I suppose the trees on the pavement there make it difficult to get a segregated lane inside the parked cars, but there are no houses that side for a while with just a nice view of the allotments - is there a possibility of making the pavement a cycle lane for some portion of that uphill bit?

I think marking cycle lanes in door zones is a step backwards rather than forwards and I would rather money not be spent on doing it. The Kilgraston Oswald redesign does seem to be an improvement - nice summary cb...

Posted 9 years ago #
neddie
Member

The pavements on Kilgraston Rd are *far too narrow*. It is very unpleasant walking along there with children between Marchmont and Blackford Pond.

Cars also come hairing round the bend at Blackford Ave & Oswald Rd (northbound) - this bend could do with having its radius reduced.

Nasty looking pinch point uphill on Kilgraston at the Whitehouse Tce/Grange Ln junction.

Very disappointing the cycle lanes are in the door zone.

No doubt a huge chunk of the cycle budget will be spent putting invisible red chips down.

And finally:

New on-road cycle lane (1.5m) outside of parking bays. In one direction only due to restricted road width

New on-road cycle lane (1.5m) outside of parking bays. In one direction only due to parking bays and private motorists taking higher priority than cyclists.

FTFY.

Posted 9 years ago #
algo
Member

@edd1e_h - yes you're right the pavements are way too narrow there. I was told once Lauder Road was initially to be the main thoroughfare for traffic south towards the centre - hence its width. I think it's currently marked as a sustrans route. Kilgraston in general is really narrow for such a busy traffic route in my opinion…

Posted 9 years ago #
Nelly
Member

@eddie_h

I thought it was clear the reason they have it one way there is that they are pushing southbound cycle traffic via Grange Loan and Northbound via Oswald Road?

Aspects still need some work though and as algo has noted, Lauder Road is a much wider and safer option - however I rate the chance of a segregated cycle lane there as next to nil (NIMBYism will be high !!)

Posted 9 years ago #
Roibeard
Member

I think the changed priorities will work reasonably well (given that is what happens anyway for drivers that know the layout), and the splitter island could well become a nice example of filtered permeability making Grange Loan much less convenient as a rat run.

Yes, the cycle lanes are on the wrong side of the cars where there are stretches of parking (going inside two vehicles on Kilgraston Road may be worse than going outside them).

However my biggest gripe is the proposed cyclist squeezer on West Mains Road. Apparently there's no room for a cycle lane, but there is a need for a new island, making cyclists into mobile traffic calming measures, or forcing them into unpleasant squeezes.

I've suggested Beyond the Kerb's solution, if they persist in such insanity.

Something similar may be required on the southbound Kilgraston Road, however at least there cyclist speeds are much closer to motorist speeds, so overtaking is less attractive.

Robert

Posted 9 years ago #
gkgk
Member

I like the uphill cycle lane on Kilgraston rd but the current cycle lane towards the top is ignored by cars (they just queue over it for the lights) and I can't see how this will change without some sort of concrete buffer / machine gun set-up.

Posted 9 years ago #
crowriver
Member

"I've suggested Beyond the Kerb's solution, if they persist in such insanity."

Otherwise, the solutions favoured in various places in East Lothian may be an alternative, e.g.. here beside the racecourse.

Posted 9 years ago #
neddie
Member

Sorry, but I can't see how creating a giant one-way gyratory around Grange Loan/Blackford Ave/Oswald Rd/Kilgraston Rd is going to be of any benefit to cyclists at all.

It will simply encourage higher speeds, as one way systems do.

A better solution could be to block off Grange Loan completely at the Kilgraston Rd junction using bollards (like they propose for Tarvit St), leaving it & the north half of Blackford Ave free for bikes & slow moving local traffic.

Posted 9 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

better comparison than Tarvit would be Craigleith Hill Ave and Craiglockhart Rd North

Posted 9 years ago #
cb
Member

It wouldn't quite be a one-way gyratory as all the bits of road will still be two way, so not sure it would have much affect on traffic speed. At any rate the 20mph zone should in theory help to reduce the speed of traffic a bit.

And you couldn't close Grange Loan completely because that's the way the bus goes and YOU CAN'T MESS WITH THE BUSES.

Posted 9 years ago #
neddie
Member

@Nelly

The problem with Lauder Rd is it doesn't go anywhere at either end due to the bridging points of the railway.

It's only possible to cross the railway at Oswald Rd, Blackford Ave and Mayfield Rd. Now if they put a cyclebridge across at Relugas Rd to Mayfield Court, things might be different... but even then there is an awkward dog-leg at the Hatton Pl end of Lauder Rd.

Posted 9 years ago #
mgj
Member

My tuppenceworth; the door zone lane on Marchmont Road is not as bad as you might think, but is pretty pointless given the road width and the complete lack of enforcement activity for double parking (even after a death at the crossing near Warrender park caused by poor sight lines). All of these lanes should have solid lines and there should be no parking in them (and while we are at it, why not have delivery drivers given proper bays at the end of Thirlestane road, etc alongside the Coop and Sainsbury's so that their delivery lorries are not parked in the cycle lanes). Cant see why Lauder Road would need a cycle lane for some parts; it is very wide or very narrow (with parking), so would need to remove some parking on it to be worthwhile.

Posted 9 years ago #
Nelly
Member

eddie_h

Yes, sorry I didnt have much time to write properly earlier, but a cyclebridge solution to West Saville has always been my preferred solution - and would allow children to get to Sciennes school more safely also.

The Hatton Place end isnt really a problem as its quite a quiet street anyway. A proper bike crossing on Grange Road would also help.

Posted 9 years ago #
drnoble
Member
I had been planning to email the council about the need for some cycle infrastructure here... well used by cyclists on their way to/from KB.

Not had a chance to go through these in detail yet, but initial thoughts:
1. Basically nothing being done on Marchmont road
2. Uphill cycle lanes probably are a liveable compromise here if the speed limit reduced to 20mph, as most bikes doing 15-20mph downhill anyway. Would be nice to get wide bi-directional segregated infrastructure, but this is a step in the right direction at least...
3. There really needs to be a 1.5m mandatory cycle-lane for the contra-flow section of Grange Loan, between Blackford Avenue and Kilgraston Road, otherwise drivers will come speeding round the bend from Kilgraston Road not expecting to see cyclists coming the other way. Instead, there are permit parking bays for cyclists to try and negotiate.
4. If only cyclists can go westbound on Grange Loan from Blackford Avenue, I can't really understand why they are not realigning the road markings more.
5. As a pedestrian, I am disappointed they are not doing anything about the Blackford Avenue/Oswald Road junction. I have nearly been run over there 3 times in the last month by drivers who failed to give way as I was crossing the road (rule 170).
6. Early start signals at Blackford Avenue/West Saville Terrace are an interesting idea, but cyclists need to be able to safely get to the ASL for them to be any use. And there is no cycle lane into it, because of the bus stop.
7. Not clear how much space there is between parking and bike lane going up the hill on Blackford Avenue. But looks to be ~0.5m. If you add in cycling 1m into the 1.5m cycle lane, then that should put handlebars just about far enough from a (well) parked car, but not a badly parked Chelsea Tractor.
8. Having the island refuge on west mains road at the main entrance to the uni is a nice touch, will make waiting there for a right turn feel safer
Will have a better look at the weekend, and maybe sketch up some improvements.

Does anyone know if there is going to be a drop-in consultation, or i this one just online?
Posted 9 years ago #
Chug
Member

@crowriver OT I know, but for the racecourse, where there's a whole bunch of space maybe a pinch point something like:

Pinch point - Australian style

would work. And that's from Oz, hardly known as a car-hating society.

Probably a bit too much to ask that this type of chicane could be installed in place of a few parking spaces on roads closer in to city centre

Posted 9 years ago #
fimm
Member

Does the panel think that a response along the lines of "since this route is only going to be usable by cyclists who are willing to mix it with traffic, it would be better not to have cycle lanes at all, rather than put them in the door zone where experienced cyclists won't use them, inexperienced cyclists will use them and put themselves in danger by so doing so and car drivers will hoot at the cyclists who are staying out of the door zone because the driver thinks the cyclist 'should be in the cycle lane'" is appropriate? Or is removing cycle lanes (however bad) worse than having rubbish ones?

Posted 9 years ago #
sallyhinch
Member

If you've got room to put in a 'door zone' bike lane then surely you've got room to put in a parking-protected one. It would make the pavements feel wider for pedestrians too.

Posted 9 years ago #
mgj
Member

I really dont understand why anyone wants to cycle inside parked cars and thinks that is safer than parking outside them; if you are opening a door into what might be a car, presumably you will take more care? Street sweeping, pedestrians? But maybe it works elsewhere. I thought that 'we are the traffic'

Posted 9 years ago #
Roibeard
Member

@mgj - I really dont understand why anyone wants to cycle inside parked cars and thinks that is safer than parking outside them

Two things:

1) The odds of the door opening. The driver's door is the one used most frequently (citation required!).

2) The consequences of being hit - being knocked off your bike is bad, being knocked off your bike and run over by the following driver is worse.

c) The distance to passing motorists is increased, adding to comfort and safety.

iv) The cycle lane can't be blocked by double parking (assuming that it is elevated compared to the parking bay).

(With numbering in honour of Uberuce)

Robert

Posted 9 years ago #
neddie
Member

I predict this will be another QBiC all over again. Do they ever learn?

Posted 9 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"
Edinburgh Council (@Edinburgh_CC)
09/10/2014 16:18
@CyclingEdin Could you help us promote this consultation, please? Marchmont to King's Buildings cycle route bit.ly/1tFKfdi

"

Same link as above. Includes -

"

The period for comments is 6-26 October 2014.

The plans will be available to view at Newington Library from 6–19 October 2014 inclusive.

"

Posted 9 years ago #
Dave
Member

So after countless months of pressure to get segregation on Leith Walk, the very next major scheme involves... moving some cycle lanes out from under parking bays. Sometimes.

I can't be bothered :)

Posted 9 years ago #

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