@chdot - Yup, though that was at a weekend, when the people driving are completely different. Rush hour on a weekday would be more likely to be drivers in a hurry to find the shortest way to/from work.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Enforcement of commercial vehicles ban in Holyrood Park
(61 posts)-
Posted 5 years ago #
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I never heard back from the police, so I presume they're not doing anything (that was what they told me anyway), so the video is now public. Remember, there's "Nothing the police can do" about this degree of speeding, unless they catch them with a speed camera.
[+] Embed the video | Video Download Get the Flash Video Posted 5 years ago # -
in response to my continued requests for HES / Rangers to tell me what actual action they are taking to reduce vehicle speeds and commercial vehicles ... "additional information signage at key entrance roadways".
yes, that'll work.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Did you suggest they not waste the effort?
Posted 5 years ago # -
Near identical overtake to mine from a couple of years ago
[+] Embed the video | Video Download Get the Flash Video Posted 5 years ago # -
They should just get a PC on a half-decent road bike with a camera. Be like shooting excessively quick fish in a barrel.
Posted 5 years ago # -
"additional information signage at key entrance roadways"
I think that large trucks etc using "truck nav" are told not to enter the park, which is relatively positive.
However for smaller vehicles any additional signage would need to be far earlier than "at key entrance roadways" because - if its a genuine error - these drivers need to plan ahead.
e.g. something approaching at the Meadowbank end needs signage on both sides of London Road obviously signing the ban on commercial vehicles.Likewise at Newington outside Commie and Scottish Widows.
Mount Eden in Auckland was being ruined by cars driving up and round it, the advisory notices didnt work............bollards blocking all traffic did.
Posted 5 years ago # -
I think the extra signage they're referring to might be the signs indicating that commercial vehicles are allowed to go around the roundabouts and come back out, which is sort of half of the solution you're referring to.
(They also indicate that commercial vehicles are apparently always permitted between the Parliament and Holyrood Road roundabouts, which is dull.)
Posted 5 years ago # -
@jonty: OK, puzzled now. Why would commercial vehicles* need to be told that they're allowed to do something that they are always allowed to do anyway - ie to use a roundabout to go back they way they came? (I have heard people suggesting that it's 'actually illegal' to go all the way round a roundabout but AFAIK this is rubbish.)
* Reference the Sentient beings thread - but driven, as we're often reminded, by "professional drivers". I suppose this must mean more than just "someone who once passed the relevant test".
Posted 5 years ago # -
It's because the roundabout they're meant to turn at is inside the park - without the signs, drivers would have to stop and do a three point turn at the entrance to the park.
Posted 5 years ago # -
I got a late but detailed response from the rangers, to my suggestion that the park is a park and should be closed to vehicles.
The "too long, didn't read" version is "No, Holyrood Park is an arterial route and closing it would cause severe congestion on other routes". The fact that the park is considered an arterial route is slightly worrying tbh...
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Thank you for your email of 20th January 2019 highlighting your concerns around vehicle speed and driver behaviour, as well as Park road use. Your email has been passed on to me as one of the Park Managers to review and respond.Firstly I can only apologise for the unacceptable delay in responding to your enquiry.
It is disappointing to read of your experience and unfortunate that not all vehicle drivers are as courteous or law abiding as they should be.
As you are likely aware Holyrood Park is a Royal Park owned by Scottish Ministers, managed by Historic Environment Scotland and regulated by The Holyrood Park Regulations 1971 (as amended). The roads within the Park are classed as Crown Property, therefore private, and do not form part of the city managed road network. Access is permitted to these roads subject to a number of conditions laid down in The Parks Regulations Act.
Speeding vehicles (including cyclists) are certainly a concern on all routes within Holyrood Park and are a growing concern as the volume of traffic increases year on year. A key part of our Park Management Strategy is cross-agency collaboration involving, amongst other, the City of Edinburgh Council (CEC) and Police Scotland. There is a clear responsibility for Police Scotland to apply their traffic enforcement policy across the city, including Holyrood Park. I am aware that Police Scotland, who have overall responsibility for enforcement of all the Park Regulations, exercise regular vehicle checks and stops within the Park which has resulted in a number of prosecutions. This is of course in proportion to available resources.
Historic Environment Scotland are exploring options with the City of Edinburgh Council, with funding from Sustrans, regarding the potential for path infrastructure changes to be made that will benefit all users, while minimising their impact upon the Park. These potential changes in the Park would include wider, shared paths with increased and improved raised table road crossing points, coupled with road narrowing at points along the line of the existing cycleway and potentially beyond. These proposals aim to improve access, change priorities and have the additional benefit of slowing vehicle speed. Both organisations have an aspiration to have a draft design in the public forum for comment in the near future. It should be stressed however that the funding available for this project is solely for the design phase at present. Once completed we will explore what funding options may be available to achieve such improvements.
While Holyrood Park roads are classed as ‘private’ it has to be recognised that they provide a key arterial route at peak travel times around our City. Unfortunately as the City has developed around the Park vehicle capacity has not been built into the City road network to accommodate its growth. This has resulted in the City becoming reliant on the Parks roads to disperse vehicle traffic. Having had to close the Park roads at various times to manage incidents or road works I can vouch, first hand, to the grid lock that usually ensues in the surrounding streets/routes.
Holyrood Park is not unique in having a road network running through it. Indeed Hyde Park in London and Central Park in New York, to name but a few, all have some form of arterial road network within their boundary.
If HES were to close the Park roads on a permanent basis it would have a severe impact on the residential streets immediately surrounding the Park. I would anticipate that HES would come under serious pressure from a number of interested parties to maintain vehicle access. Indeed even current short term closures cause a flurry of enquires and concerns from various groups and organisations over how long any particular road section will remain shut.
While a permanent closure of the road network in the Park is one option to consider our internal discussions, through our Holyrood Park Strategy Group and our work with the City of Edinburgh Council and Police Scotland continues to explore various options including extending weekend closures, introducing off peak road closures, etc. all linking into wider City aspirations. The key is around striking the right balance, ensuring that we provide the right infrastructure that enables all user groups to utilise and enjoy the Park safely.
Historic Environment Scotland is committed to maintaining Holyrood Park as a safe and enjoyable resource for all and always welcomes comment from our varied users. Through regular reviews of our management practices and feedback from users, like yourself, we strive to keep Holyrood Park as a pleasurable oasis of relative calm at the heart of our lovely city.
Once again thank you for your letter and if you have any further queries regarding this matter the Ranger Service will be happy to advise.
I can advise you that your complaint has been addressed at stage 1 of our complaint procedure, a copy of which can be found on our website (https://www.historicenvironment.scot/complaints/).
If you are unhappy with my response you can request a further investigation of your complaint. If you wish to do so please contact me at the address below.
Yours sincerely
Martin Gray
---------------------------------------Posted 5 years ago # -
"Speeding vehicles (including cyclists) are certainly a concern on all routes..."
By routes does he mean roads? Or are there really speeding vehicles on the narrow paths around the top of the crags?
Surely the alternative that he just means the roads and thought he had better make his own bias against cyclists apparent isn't worth considering...
Posted 5 years ago # -
My bold.
“
I am aware that Police Scotland, who have overall responsibility for enforcement of all the Park Regulations, exercise regular vehicle checks and stops within the Park which has resulted in a number of prosecutions. This is of course in proportion to available resources.
“
Really??
Posted 5 years ago # -
"The roads within the Park are classed as Crown Property, therefore private,"
is somewhat contradicted by
"Holyrood Park is a Royal Park owned by Scottish Ministers, managed by Historic Environment Scotland"
So, public or private?
Posted 5 years ago # -
"The key is around striking the right balance"
That word AGAIN...
TIE.
Posted 5 years ago # -
"key arterial route"
It's a park FFS.
"Hyde Park in London and Central Park in New York, to name but a few, all have some form of arterial road network within their boundary"
That may well be in the case of Hyde Park, but look at the properly segregated pedestrian and cycling facilities they have alongside.
HP https://goo.gl/maps/fs7j9YYzfU42
Central Park's transverse roads are sunk below prevailing ground level and fenced off from the park proper, and the other roads are mainly very time-limited and closed all weekend.
https://www.centralpark.com/visitor-info/park-drive-regulations/
Posted 5 years ago # -
Hyde Park and Central Park both have extensive paved walking(and some cycling) paths not next to roads. Holyrood Park does not. His comparison does not flatter Holyrood Park.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Another driver doing 40+ mph through the park today. Reported them via 101, just to get it logged for statistical purposes, but they still wanted to make an appointment to come and see me and the footage.
I did warn them that there's no accurate indication of speed, and the pass itself wasn't too close or anything, so they probably can't do anything, but the officer I spoke to said that they still want to see it "just in case".
Posted 5 years ago # -
Apologies if it's already been covered but what would the police accept as a reasonably accurate indication of speed?
My cheap camera doesn't do GPS itself but the upload software can merge a GPS track with the footage so you get a speedometer superimposed on the footage. Cameras with GPS usually can do this bit automatically.
Would this be sufficient? OK, so I don't expect it would count as actual corroboration but it might at least persuade a policeperson to 'have a word with the driver' instead of taking no action?
Posted 5 years ago # -
Apologies if it's already been covered but what would the police accept as a reasonably accurate indication of speed?
The issue is that they don't know how fast the other vehicle is going. Even if I can prove that I'm (legally) going at 30 mph, they need to know the speed the other vehicle is going at to charge them.
Maybe if I was cycling alongside them with some precisely calibrated speedometer, but even that probably wouldn't be admissible.
Of course, if they bothered, they could easily work it out by doing distance over time, with distance measured after the fact, and time taken from the video - but that also probably wouldn't be admissible for some reason.
I also suspect the police don't want to even talk to drivers in cases like this - because the driver probably knows that they can't actually charge them with anything, and might get snarky with them about time wasting or similar.
Posted 5 years ago # -
There's no way the police would be able to accept video evidence for a speeding charge. The defence would just say "The frame rate could have been altered".
I once had a conversation with a fairly sympathetic officer about drivers overtaking at solid white lines. This is legal if the person you're overtaking is going at less than 10 mph (and it's otherwise safe, of course). I asked if GPS data showing that I was going at 15mph would be sufficient to issue a ticket, and they said it probably wouldn't be.
Posted 5 years ago # -
@Frenchy - Ah yes, good point on the frame rate. I've seen the 10 mph defence used before as well. Basically you can overtake anyone (cyclist or motorist) on solid white lines and just say "They were going < 10 mph" if you get pulled over, it seems.
On the solid white line section of The Whisp, I always take primary so if someone DOES decide to overtake me (which hasn't happened yet, touch wood), I can at least argue it's careless driving to be driving on the wrong side of the road on a blind bend. Although I imagine that the police would probably say "Well they didn't hit anyone, so it wasn't careless".
Posted 5 years ago # -
Although I imagine that the police would probably say "Well they didn't hit anyone, so it wasn't careless".
I once found myself cycling on the A702 (swearing involved):
[+] Embed the video | Video Download Get the Flash Video Police officer literally shrugged his shoulders when I reported this, then asked if I really expected them to wait behind me.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Anyone know if tour buses count as "commercial vehicles"?
Posted 5 years ago # -
Bound to.
Posted 5 years ago # -
From the Holyrood Park regulations:
Acts for which Written Permission is required.
4. Within the Park the following acts are prohibited unless the written permission of the Secretary of State has been obtained:-
(1) driving or using any vehicle otherwise than on a road, but excluding from this restriction hand or foot propelled invalid carriages and any other vehicles not mechanically propelled no wheel of which (including any tyre) exceeds twenty inches in diameter;
(2) driving or using any vehicle:-
(a) designed to seat more than seven passengers (in addition to the driver), or
(b) constructed or adapted for the purpose of any trade or business or as a dwelling, other than a vehicle designed to seat not more than seven passengers (in addition to the driver) and used only for the carriage of passengers and their effects pursuant to a contract for the use of the vehicle as a whole;
except in either case for the purpose of transacting business with persons residing in the Park or using land under any licence from the Secretary of State, or for removing any vehicle which has broken down in the Park;"designed to seat more than seven passengers (in addition to the driver)" surely covers tour buses.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Ta. Saw one on the high road the other day and just wondered.
Posted 5 years ago # -
"driving or using any vehicle otherwise than on a road, but excluding from this restriction hand or foot propelled invalid carriages and any other vehicles not mechanically propelled no wheel of which (including any tyre) exceeds twenty inches in diameter"
So you can only ride off-road in the park on a Brompton or BMX? :)
Posted 5 years ago # -
@Murun Buchstansangur - Technically, yes ;)
Posted 5 years ago #
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