CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Obese Britons don’t think they have a weight problem

(120 posts)

  1. Morningsider
    Member

    IWRATS - slack wording on my part. I think CCEers have been more active than most in trying to get our politicians to change (cycle) track.

    The influence of lobbyists is an odd one. In my experience they are generally pretty amateurish. However, they have one great advantage over campaigners. They can directly promise jobs and investment. No politician wants to be seen to stand in the way of new jobs or investment in their area, unless it is clearly very unpopular (although Craighouse shows that even that isn't always a barrier).

    Look how new major shopping developments are always welcomed as "creating X number of jobs", with no mention of all the existing jobs in small, local shops they are liable to destroy.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    "Look how new major shopping developments are always welcomed as "creating X number of jobs", with no mention of all the existing jobs in small, local shops they are liable to destroy."

    And (it seems to me of course) that planners (and politicians) like 'development' so much that they don't bother to ask basic questions.

    They also get into stupid bidding wars - 'if you give us this much subsidy we'll bring this many jobs. If you don't someone else might give us more money' (allegedly).

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Morningsider

    Indeed. My sword leaps unbidden from its scabbard whenever the lottery provides a windfall somewhere without mention of all the pound coins sucked from modest dwellings across the land. A map of this redistribution might well be instructive, but the Google fitted to this computer cannot find one.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. acsimpson
    Member

    Has anyone mentioned how cheap petrol is and how it contributes to all of this? I mean they pipe this stuff up from miles under the bedrock at the bottom of an ocean. They then transport it to a refinery where it is heavily processed before transporting it again to an underground storage facility close to your house from which they pump it directly into your vehicle and only charge around £1.30 a litre for it.

    Lager meanwhile is made by swilling some crushed grain in a vat of warm water. It's bottled and taken to the pub where they sometime charge £10 a litre for it.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. PS
    Member

    Porridge oats are cheap. As is rice. And lots of veg. But we can't force folks to eat those.

    Society has changed. Both parents in a family working inevitably leads to more money chasing houses, and less time to shop, prepare meals and such. So what do we blame for that - government or equality?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. Instography
    Member

    Blame capitalism, obviously.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. Ed1
    Member

    Capitalism is to blame? Why because the system has created an abundance of cheap food allowing people to exercise their own personal choice to eat too much?
    Under a government ran system people may be thinner and under nourished, shortages of food, as the way to get food would be being close to government, or some discriminatory criteria set, if someone belonged to the wrong group, no or little food.

    Aldi do not charge different people a different price for a pint of milk. If the government ran Aldi political minority groups would have to pay more so that government interest groups could have discounts.

    Like Edinburgh leisure to choose a benign example, where millionaires can get a discount if the right age, (when unemployed in 2006 they offered no means tested discount), chauffeur driven scottish government employees get discounts, councillors pursing their own personal interests get a discount, Pure gym does not discriminate, it gives a everyone a good price.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I don't think it's reasonable to discuss this topic without refering to to two key learnings from World War II;

    1) The cohort of UK children who grew up on food rations was one of the healthiest ever
    2) The cohort of children who experienced the 1944 famine in Holland have revealed acquired hereditary epigenetic health detriments

    You would think it was obvious that highly active children running around and then wolfing down bread and potatoes would be healthy, but it isn't obvious that starved people will have fat grandchildren. There's more to weight than choice.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. sallyhinch
    Member

    Interesting. Although there appear to be very few overweight children in the Netherlands. Perhaps if it hadn't been for the war, they'd all be living forever now, given how much cycling they do...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. Instography
    Member

    @sally
    They're working on it.

    "In 2009, 12.8% of the Dutch boys and 14.8% of the Dutch girls aged 2–21 years were overweight and 1.8% of the boys and 2.2% of the girls were classified as obese. This is a two to three fold higher prevalence in overweight and four to six fold increase in obesity since 1980. Since 1997, a substantial rise took place, especially in obesity, which increased 1.4 times in girls and doubled in boys."

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. fimm
    Member

    Some more information about the Dutch famine of 1944 for those, like me, who knew nothing about it:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944
    From that Wikipedia article:
    "The Dutch Famine Birth Cohort Study...found that the children of pregnant women exposed to famine were more susceptible to diabetes, obesity, cardiovascular disease, microalbuminuria and other health problems.
    Moreover, the children of the women who were pregnant during the famine were smaller, as expected. However, surprisingly, when these children grew up and had children those children were also smaller than average. These data suggested that the famine experienced by the mothers caused some kind of epigenetic changes that were passed down to the next generation."

    The wikipedia article on epigenetics is somewhat technical.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @fimm

    You can borrow this;

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Epigenetics-Revolution-Understanding-Inheritance/dp/1848313470

    any time you like - it's reasonably accessible.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. Instography
    Member

    Certainly capitalism needs to take its share of the blame. The declining quality of food needs to come from somewhere. Those fizzy drinks don't market themselves. The promotion of a property-owning, over-mortaged, two-car, two-job lifestyle didn't appear from nowhere.

    Sure markets work well at allocating resources most of the time and certainly compared with central planning but there's also all sorts of market failures. Sometimes the market doesn't work at all. There is no market mechanism that prevents inactivity or excess consumption although the market heavily promotes both. Unless you think all marketing does is provide information with which people can apply their free will, you have to recognise that free will is at best a heavily conditional freedom (if it has any meaning at all).

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. Instography
    Member

    If you imagine poverty as a slow famine, I wonder if these epigenetic changes might explain some of the notoriously elusive "Glasgow Effect"

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Instography

    When I was an undergraduate there was a suggestion that trace cadmium in the Loch Katrine water supply was responsible for the city's excess of cardiac disease. I can't find any reference to that now.

    I'd imagine that epigenetic changes in Glaswegians might well be a fruitful field of study.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. Stickman
    Member

    "The declining quality of food needs to come from somewhere"

    There is certainly a wider choice of food than ever before, and cheaper than ever before, but is there evidence for "declining quality"? Availability of sugar-loaded rubbish doesn't exclude provision of quality food. Looking in even the "discount" supermarkets suggests that quality food is available if people want to buy it.

    I agree that there are market failures, but I don't think food supply is one. Food is cheaper, more abundant, less is wasted before getting to market.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    Thread has drifted slightly so I'll add this here.

    Detailed report about Edinburgh transport and Public Health from 2000. I have a paper copy if anyone wants to borrow.

    (This is just an intro quote)

    "

    MOBILITY, TRANSPORT AND POLLUTION

    The primary function of transport is in enabling access to people, goods and services. In so doing it also promotes health indirectly through the achievement and maintenance of social networks. Some forms of transport, such as cycling and walking, promote health directly by increasing physical activity and reduction of obesity. Lack of transport may damage health by denying access to people, goods and services and by diverting resources from other necessities. Furthermore, transport may damage health directly, most notably by accidental injury and air pollution.

    "

    http://www.apho.org.uk/resource/view.aspx?RID=44244

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. crowriver
    Member

    On "free will" and the exercise of choice. These are, of course, affected by our environment.

    "What is an 'obesogenic' environment?

    The UK's National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) has put part of the blame for obesity on "obesogenic environments". What are they? In simple terms, environments that encourage people to eat unhealthily and not do enough exercise."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-27601593

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. crowriver
    Member

    "The truth about obesity: 10 shocking things you need to know

    As a nation we are getting fatter to the point of crisis. But why? And what are the implications? For starters, it's hard to treat after the age of five and is bankrupting the NHS"

    http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jun/23/truth-about-obesity-10-shocking-things-need-to-know

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    "and is bankrupting the NHS"

    <Govtbeancounter>but offering massive potential savings in pensions</Govtbeancounter>

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. crowriver
    Member

    Obesity bigger cost than war and terror

    Britain spending £47bn a year dealing with the healthcare and social costs of an increasingly overweight population, study finds

    ---

    The study, commissioned by consultancy firm McKinsey and Company, reveals obesity has the second-largest economic impact on the UK behind smoking, generating an annual loss equivalent to 3% of GDP.

    More than 2.1 billion people around the world – or nearly 30% of the global population – are overweight or obese, with the figure set to rise to almost half of the world’s adult population by 2030, according to the McKinsey Global Institute (MGI), which produced the report.

    It has called for a co-ordinated response from governments, retailers, restaurants and food and drink manufacturers to address what it calls the “global obesity crisis”.

    ---

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/20/obesity-bigger-cost-than-war-and-terror

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    "£47bn a year"

    So, Scotland £5bn a year(?)

    And Edinburgh £500m

    £1,000 per person??

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. Instography
    Member

    I want my money. I haven't cost the health service a penny (yet).

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. crowriver
    Member

    WARNING: Daily Wail link.

    British girls are the fattest in Europe: Doctors warn up to a third are 'dangerously fat' and childhood obesity has reached 'alarming' levels

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2838553/British-girls-fattest-Europe-doctors-warn.html#ixzz3Jc3KSMei

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Sustrans NI (@SustransNI)
    21/11/2014 09:31
    Imagine if more people walked & cycled in NI? Currently 62% adults & 1 in 4 kids in NI overweight/obese http://tinyurl.com/pd4a5ej #ActiveTravel

    "

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    Twitter profile -

    "

    Outreach cycling officer Falkirk, mad for anything cycling related. Fighting obesity 1 day at a time 10 1/2 stone off with more to come. All views are my own.

    "

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. minus six
    Member

    In these here days of bonanza oil glut cornucopia food choices

    Wisdom of the body naturally transmitting need for proper nutrition requires strenuous activity to amplify the signal to brain sufficiently

    Chicken or egg dilemma, essentially

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. minus six
    Member

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. Ed1
    Member

    The milk snatcher enjoying a big mac, McDonalds allowing the less well of that basic freedom in life -) to enjoy a meal out once in a while. Of course like many restaurant may not be healthy if eat in large quantities, nor would some of the food sold in Caledonian.

    I missed an interested philosophical post.
    “I am attracted to the idea that our politicians have been seduced by the market fundamentalist notion that the best outcomes for all are achieved by everyone acting in their own selfish interest. They can't say this openly because the idea is revolting to everyone except the people sitting on the desk of banks directly behind me, but it does explain a lot of their behaviour and instincts to de-regulate all commercial transactions including food purchases.”

    I am quite cynical and although would not fully subscribe to "rational choice theory" or "Ayn Rands individualism " do tend to think that like business government for better or worse are ran for self-interest of those who run it by and large. So not quite sure how a “ non-capitalist" approach would be better therefore would have not consider the problem one of solely of capitalism.

    If ministers MPs etc are not acting in own their own self-interest, are we to suppose they are acting against it, may be at times, for the greater good society, although I would tend to think sometimes this would involve a classification of the greater good to suite what happens to co inside with self interest. The classic self interest is when say elected officials vote for something they consider wrong or against that consider good, because this allows them to keep doing their "good work" which happens to align with keeping their job. I do tend a think a in the first instance best to apply a Rand type frame when evaluating a politician.

    May also be some selection effect, pejoratively could be regarded as adverse as suggested by some that business leader politicians more likely to be sociopath or at least more responsive to incentives.

    Although there may be some or even many ministers councillors who are there for the good of society, it cannot do any harm to consider through a self-interest frame in the same way if buying a used car may consider is this car really bad and salesperson misleading etc.

    Tend to think businesses act predominately in self-interest but as do governments.

    The housing problem is largely one created by governments rather than the product of "market fundamentalist" where transfer payments are in effect made from poorer to better off with state restriction of supply, state insurance and subsidy through interest rates. This has increased prices and rents part of the increases being a government created transfer payment in effect.

    It is often a transfer from poorer to better off, also an intergenerational transfer from younger to older.

    In a freer market housing would most likely be cheaper than it is now.

    Although (it may be said , there is exceptions) people such as Milton Friedman may consider the government does more harm than good and unfettered markets always the way forward sometimes this is clearly not the case, things such as public goods parks libraries cycle lanes would be undersuppled if were left to the market.

    The increase in the standards of living, from cheaper food, to electrical goods, to retail from likes of amazon and eBay, have not been through government action.
    The things the government "control", housing, transport, education, have been getting more expensive. The governments have almost had a policy of inflating house price not allowing market corrections. Incidently although not suggesting because of, MPs who have been incentivised with a option on future value of London property through tax payer funded mortgages.

    People may say communism did not work, look at the soviet union etc, however this was not done as well as could be done today the information units could be a lot better through technology.

    In communist soviet union may be corruption, some more equal than others etc, possibly not the best example of the best possible communism. Likewise we have crony capitalism with some corruption and interest groups so may not be the best example of capitalism.

    the pragmatic view expressed by Deng Xiaoping "the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice" May be could have good or bad food under different systems.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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