CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

A pedestrian on Princes St

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  1. crowriver
    Member

    Ha. That reminds me of a visit to Linz, Austria one time. I was walking and approached a road which was devoid of traffic. Nonetheless, large crowds of people were waiting on either side at the pedestrian crossing, which was at red. I starting crossing, and numerous people stared at me disapprovingly, then started shouting "Hey! Hey!" and pointing at me (specifically, my feet, as though they were the wrong doers).

    I later realised it is illegal to "jaywalk" in Austria and can incur a fine. Yet in Vienna, people do it all the time. Something about Linz and obeying the rules, clearly...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  2. paulmilne
    Member

    I have just relocated to an office behind the castle so will be a Princes Street pedestrian more often now.

    My personal experience is of the sporadic nature of motor vehicle (read bus) traffic on Princes Street. What is the point of waiting meekly for the green man when there is a clear carriageway in both directions? The wide median also means it's easy for the able-bodied to nip halfway across at most places.

    But able-bodied being the key word here. Easy enough to advocate the go anytime I like attitude (which I do have for myself) but for elderly/young/disabled/buggy pushers, it's not so easy.

    Don't get me started on cycling! T'would be so good to carve the street up differently, but with new e/w route seeming to rely heavily on George Street that seems less likely. We just need to keep the pressure up by pointing out the bleedin' obvious.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    As it says at the end of the video -

    Posted 8 years ago #
  4. HankChief
    Member

    Got a response on twitter from Adam McVey that it was difficult to get signalling right with competing traffic modes but he will raise it.

    https://twitter.com/hank_chief/status/661911732768661504

    Posted 8 years ago #
  5. Stickman
    Member

    That video is shocking: doesn't matter if people are walking across when it's red, the buses and taxis are showing no regard for people.

    At what point do you think "I'm just going to keep going, if they get run over its their own fault"

    Posted 8 years ago #
  6. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    We talked about closing the junction up the thread, I wrote this. Any feedback would be welcome before I start tweeting it.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  7. Dave
    Member

    Nice post.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  8. wingpig
    Member

    What are the numbers like when you work out the vehicles-per-hour at peak times of the affected bus services? Might be worth providing the numbers in case the council's "BUT ALL BUSES MUST GO ALONG PRINCES STREET" protocol-breach alarm is set off.
    There'd still be pedestrian crossing of Princes Street on or around that point, maintaining the effect of delaying traffic in either direction to stop too much building up at adjacent junctions.
    Some of the stops either side on Princes Street could spread out a little with the extra non-junction space.
    Whilst an end-of-Castle-Street continuous footway would be the most pedestrian-favouring, the option of either a bike cut-through (to the future cycle/ped-friendly George Street) or sufficient kerb-drops to let emergency vehicles across could be suggested.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  9. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Thanks!

    Wingpig - I'd love to have more serious numbers to back up this claim, particularly about how many buses need diverting, but I don't have any better resource than counting on google maps. I think Fountainbridge once took a one hour video at this junction, it would be interesting to see what proportion of vehicles are turning up Frederick Street, although it would be a lot of work just to make one of the sentences a little more convincing...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  10. wingpig
    Member

    I was thinking just check the frequency from the peak-hour timetables for the affected routes...

    At least 35 vehicles per hour northbound, during weekday peak.
    At least six of those are the 100, which currently does its Market Street trick so uses Frederick/George/Hanover to get in place to be allowed to go up the Mound.
    27 of those journeys are northbound only, so only eight journeys per hour southbound.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  11. twinspark
    Member

    Frankly none of the "Princes Street" crossings are great. Had reason to be at both the Waverly end and Lothian Road ends recently and stood for absolutely ages waiting on a green man. Mini Twinspark even remarked at how long we were having to wait at Lothian Road and that the central island was getting rather crowded.

    Why can't Edinburgh Council not just adjust the timings to give priority to pedestrians as per their own hierarchy?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  12. SRD
    Moderator

    I was trying to get to the 'quiet route' at the back of Rutland square from Princes st on saturday. buses were going through straddling lanes, so I decided safest thing was to get off and cross at green man. took absolutely ages. completely ridiculous set up.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  13. Fountainbridge
    Member

    Ok, where do I start. I've been battling this for nearly a year now.

    I've recorded 2 different master videos at the Frederick Street / Princes street junction, 6 months apart, of an hour long each. From those hour long videos I've deduced

    Pedestrians have 6 seconds of green man, and have 20 seconds from the start of the green man to the first vehicle moving. The normal wait is up to 90 seconds, but up to 5 mins recorded. Have heard of people waiting 9 mins

    In those 180 minutes of video I've picked up 3 actual faults with the lights. Lights held when tram stopped at Castle Street crossing, a 90 second pedestrian phase, and a 90 second Frederick phase. All but the Frederick street phase has been fixed - they said they'd have to call in their supplier as they couldn't find the fault in the code.

    I've had various feedback from the council. Basically they say that it's difficult to judge the pedestrian needs as it varies so much and appears to be random. Trams have absolute priority, buses next.

    The transport forum (bus operators and tram) were asked if pedestrians could have more time and they said no, so no change.

    Two positive things have happened. They're going to trial both directions of traffic on Princes street moving at the same time, rather than turn about. This should reduce the wait by about 30 seconds.

    To gauge traffic on Frederick Street check out which bus routes use the road. There's far more routes heading north than head south (like 100, 10). I'd say on average 2 vehicles per phase turn right from Princes street in to Frederick street. There is a fair amount of times no traffic leaves Frederick Street. All traffic using Frederick Street could use South St David Street but that's already clogged as it is. Some buses could be diverted via Charlotte Square and along George Street but that aint gona happen.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  14. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Fountainbridge - thanks for plugging away at this and fixing some faults!

    'The transport forum (bus operators and tram) were asked if pedestrians could have more time and they said no, so no change.' I'd agree that the current set up is stretched to full capacity, it would be difficult to get extra time from anywhere. That's why I think the junction should be closed rather than modified, we need the options for vehicles reduced rather than just reprioritised.

    Have you ever suggested banning the right turn out of Frederick Street? This could buy a significant amount of time, and as you say it's the least used turn on the whole junction.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. Fountainbridge
    Member

    One thing I forgot to mention - Frederick Street gets about 20 seconds on green even if there's no actual traffic. Generally the traffic detectors do not work at this junction.

    Right turn out of Frederick Street - no I haven't suggested that.

    I forgot about all the citilink coaches above. I think all their west bound coaches head that way (Glasgow and FRB bound).

    One of the main things about the junction is the lack of constant traffic flowing through it, so pedestrians cross anyway. At the mound for example there's a constant stream of traffic, so not many people risk crossing, and the entire junction works reasonably well.

    Personally I'd like to see both directions on Princes street going at same time. I estimate a 30 second reduction in phase time. Then perhaps only have Frederick Street on green every other phase, or at least only if vehicles are detected. Remove all eastbound tram stuff (detection, holding etc) from the sequence as it make little difference to the tram anyway. West bound Trams don't appear to have any impact.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. Fountainbridge
    Member

    How long does it take to cross eight meters of Grosvenor Street, obeying all traffic lights?

    1 minute 46 seconds.

    So 1 vehicle could drive through

    https://youtu.be/z6--HrUyzOk

    Posted 8 years ago #
  17. Min
    Member

    A week and a half ago I cycled to Boots in Princes Street to buy hayfever tablets. Today I cycled to Ocean Terminal to get them. Here is how it went.

    Princes Street - cycle through hostile streets, try to avoid being taken out by tramlines and car/taxi/bus drivers simultaneously. Get off and walk rather than cycle along Princes Street. Wait for a ridiculous length of time to cross each side street. Try to find a cycle hoop to lock bike to. Eventually find one with only one bike attached. Nearly get bum ripped off by double decker while attaching/removing bike as they as so close to the road.

    Ocean Terminal - cycle mostly on the NEPN. Lock bike to Sheffield stand right outside the front door. Walk straight to and from shops.

    I think that is what is known as a no-brainer and I am not a fan of shopping centres in general but really, Princes Street is just not worth the bother.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  18. steveo
    Member

    I'm the same, I'd rather go to Hermiston Gait or Blackhall than town. Both of which I can get to quicker on the bike than by car.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  19. wingpig
    Member

    I know there are now cyclehoops on Princes Street but I don't fancy the idea of having to watch out for them whilst watching out for everything else and not going under a bus, so I tend to use George Street's surface and Rose Street's racks if I have to get something from Princes Street.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  20. Min
    Member

    My difficulty in that respect (ignoring all the others for now) is that I can never remember which "block" the shops I want are on. So if I get it wrong I have all the super-long waits at ped crossings AND the walk from the racks on Rose Street to add to my time. They are super for shops on Rose Street though.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  21. wingpig
    Member

    "I can never remember which "block" the shops I want are on."

    The last few times I went to the big Boots I had to check beforehand. I haven't had an accurate internal map of Princes Street since the HMV and Vermin at the West end stopped being in the right place.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  22. unhurt
    Member

    Was just thinking this evening that Princes Street needs some bike stands actually on it, as the hoops near Waterstones (all two of them) were already in use.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  23. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

  24. chdot
    Admin

  25. David Hunter
    Member

    Living Streets have re-posted video of crossing mayhem at Frederick Street on Facebook

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Widget

    Posted 7 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Pedestrians in Princes Street and environs seem to get a much rawer deal than those in the Royal Mile (tourist) area. Tram priority means very long waits for pedestrian green lights – and this is a very windy and cold city. Further, there often seems not enough time for the less mobile to cross.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/moyra-forrest-it-s-hard-to-avoid-the-temptation-to-jaywalk-1-4348713

    Posted 7 years ago #
  27. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Was that EEN article originally written in crayon? Dear God. "Will no-one think of the poor drivers!". To think she was once a councillor.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  28. PS
    Member

    It’s hard to avoid the temptation to jaywalk

    That article is utter garbage. "Jaywalking" isn't a crime, so why the hell would "pedestrian red lights" be "enforced"?

    It's entirely fair to expect drivers driving in the economic heart of the city to cope with pedestrians, who are far more numerous that drivers.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  29. gembo
    Member

    Aw c'mon, PS, drivers need to be able to eat their cornflakes in the way into work from bowl in their lap, spend the day on their mobile phones whilst driving and then eat their tea from a different receptacle, same lap on way home. They cannot do all this and contend with peds

    Posted 7 years ago #
  30. neddie
    Member


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