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"Edinburgh councillors approve 20mph plans"

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  • Started 9 years ago by spytfyre
  • Latest reply from chdot
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  1. Morningsider
    Member

    teddybears - I'm not sure accidents everywhere can be on a long-term downward trend while also regressing to the mean, that doesn't make any sense.

    Also, while individual sites may have a mean accident rate (one of the arguments used to question the efficacy of fixed speed camera sites - that they were placed after an unusually high run of accidents at particular spots that would have reduced naturally, subsequently proven to be wrong) I'm not sure that can really apply to a whole city, as there are simply too many factors involved.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  2. teddybears
    Member

    I agree there are too many factors to attribute any accident reduction to 20mph in Edinburgh currently. Hence my annoyance when the Police come out with such meaningless rubbish.
    The sort of thing Politicians then seize as facts to justify their pet projects.

    May have got my terms mixed up but we are certainly on the downward part of the curve for accident numbers and have been for a while.
    There are hardly any Accident Reduction Schemes implemented in Edinburgh because the accident numbers just aren't there to justify them

    Please note I'm in favour of 20's generally - it's the false and misleading claims that are really annoying.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    “it's the false and misleading claims that are really annoying”

    See unrelated thread! -

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18611

    Posted 6 years ago #

  4. neddie
    Member

    What if 20mph is a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing:?
    - clean air
    - safer streets
    - liveable cities
    - healthier children
    - etc.

    What-If-Its-A-Hoax by Ed, on Flickr

    Posted 6 years ago #

  5. Ed1
    Member

    I'm not sure accidents everywhere can be on a long-term downward trend while also regressing to the mean, that doesn't make any sense.”
    Not sure about that, if the data before the most recent was extreme in an upwards direction then it could have gone down at a lower rate than the trend (while still going down or not) or down at a higher rate than the trend if extreme in downwards direction and then revert to the mean on the next sample even if moved in same direction at a lower or faster rate. It would depend on how strong the trend was in relation to the extreme so could regress to mean while continuing trend downwards ?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  6. Morningsider
    Member

    Ed1 - I know what you mean, but annual road casualties have been falling since the peak in 1970 and are now far lower than when such statistics were first collected in 1950. This isn't regression to the mean - the number of casualties are going down while the distance travelled and number of vehicles on the road have gone up.

    See page 6: https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/39307/sct05174402361.pdf

    Posted 6 years ago #

  7. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Priceless! & good to hear of enforcement.

    "Traffic calmer with karma

    At last month’s NTBCC meeting, the following true story emerged concerning police intervention. A local resident recently berated two community beat officers monitoring traffic speeds on Royal Terrace. They would never catch anyone by standing so obviously in the middle of the road wearing high-vis jackets, she admonished them. Officers politely explained that, despite such legal obligations, they catch a surprising number of ‘numpties’ this way. On returning to a different spot on Royal Terrace the next day, the officers soon stopped and cautioned a female driver for speeding in the 20mph zone. Guess who was at the wheel? She was, say the police, ‘mortified’."

    http://www.broughtonspurtle.org.uk/sites/broughtonspurtle.org.uk/files/backissues/Spurtle%20271%20Final%20Hi%20Res.pdf

    Posted 6 years ago #

  8. chdot
    Admin

    “Guess who was at the wheel?”

    Same happened, years ago, when West Linton got a 30 limit after local campaign...

    Posted 6 years ago #

  9. fimm
    Member

    HahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHA!!

    Posted 6 years ago #

  10. Stickman
    Member

    Nick Cook:

    "I'll be on @STVNews talking about latest rollout of @Edinburgh_CC blanket #20mph limit @ 6.00pm"

    Maybe the interviewer can ask him which streets in his ward he wants to go back to 30mph? Or how the council can afford a "review" of the scheme if he wants the entire roads budget to be spent on potholes?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  11. chdot
    Admin

    Could be interesting -

    “

    I will be on @STVNews 6pm Mon talking about rollout of 20mph in #Edinburgh, reduction of injuries by 25% and enforcement

    “

    https://mobile.twitter.com/cyclingsurgeon/status/970693095116374017

    Posted 6 years ago #

  12. Stickman
    Member

    https://stv.tv/amp/1409618-final-phase-of-edinburgh-s-20mph-speed-limit-rolled-out

    Tory councillor Nick Cook said: "As it reaches full implementation we remain concerned the council's blanket approach to 20mph will actually dilute road safety in areas that actually need a lower speed limit, like outside schools.

    Yet not once has Nick or any is his party colleagues said "we don't agree with the limit but drivers should stay within the law"

    "The council spent £2.5m on signage and posters for the scheme, we think the money could be better spent on physical road safety measures and road safety education."

    Wait a minute, not two weeks ago Nick and his chums wanted every penny of the roads budget spent on potholes, and didn't want any budget spent on "physical road safety measures" such as protected cyclepaths.

    Also, I wonder if Central Taxis will have a word with their driver who admits speeding and says that people going at the speed limit are "holding everyone up"?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    This is an entertaining Nick Cook thread -

    https://twitter.com/gavincorbett/status/970725858725023744

    Posted 6 years ago #

  14. gembo
    Member

    Nick does seem very willing to fall into Gavin's traps?

    Gavin - which roads would you put back up to thirty then?

    Nick - the main roads

    Gavin - they are still at 30 or 40

    Also is he unable to understand the details of the Bath report? Or just unwilling to accept its flaws?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  15. chdot
    Admin

    “Nick does seem very willing to fall into Gavin's traps”

    Well he didn’t come across on STV as being too smart.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    “

    A lot of people drive badly in 20mph zones - they stop for on-coming cars far too soon, as if they are gong much faster. It's possible to drive very smoothly in them - if there aren't queues, of course! Some roads in Bath don't need them - you can't go over 20 anyway!

    “

    https://mobile.twitter.com/kirstentelliott/status/964178167878561792

    Posted 6 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Nick Cook (@CllrNickCook)
    05/03/2018, 21:05
    #ToriesInSixWords Free markets don't descriminate. Against anyone.

    “

    https://twitter.com/cllrnickcook/status/970767227980058624?s=21

    Posted 6 years ago #

  18. acsimpson
    Member

    I think the second sentence probably summarised Nick Cook quite well.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  19. Snowy
    Member

    Even to a politically uneducated person such as myself, there is a clear difference between conscious discrimination and systemic discrimination. Lost on Nick, clearly.

    Oh and it's 'discriminate', Nick.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  20. Frenchy
    Member

    Right, that's it. No one will ever convince me that Nick Cook is not satire.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  21. acsimpson
    Member

    Well spotted snowy. Perhaps Miles Briggs and Nick Cook actually have the same person running their online presences.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    Presume he’s happy with traffic on ‘main’ roads?

    “

    Morningside Tory councillor Nick Cook said he was also opposing the plan.

    He said: “I have been contacted by scores of concerned residents regarding the proposals to turn the Cluny Centre into a commercial wedding venue in the middle of residential Morningside.

    “There are real concerns in respect of antisocial behaviour, noise pollution and an increase in traffic volume in an area where many residents already struggle to be able to park outside their own home, without the arrival of coach loads of visitors.”

    “

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/unholy-row-over-venue-plan-for-former-edinburgh-church-1-4703333

    Posted 6 years ago #

  23. Stickman
    Member

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/almost-1000-drivers-caught-breaking-20mph-limit-in-edinburgh-1-4711231

    The "education" phase is over. Time to start handing out fines to all caught over the limit: behaviour would change pretty quickly once people realise they can't get away with it.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  24. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Asked my mum - who ain't from around here - what she thought the limit on Queen Street was as we waited to cross yesterday. 'Forty?' she ventured.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  25. ARobComp
    Member

    There was some speed traps up on Woodfield Road where the new 20mph zone has just come in. The local FB group posted "watch out for the speed camera" type messages, and mostly people just said "Gawd I hope I didn't get caught".

    I've not seen many people even coming close to 20mph on the streets. There was a range rover which must have been hitting about 60 when I left the house the other morning riding down towards Colinton. Assume children were late for their Lute classes.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  26. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/fewer-casualties-and-positive-data-winning-the-argument-for-20mph-zones-1-4712729

    Posted 6 years ago #

  27. gembo
    Member

    Well, you can't argue with those stats (well obviously you can if you are a mentalist who writes in EEN comments section, though I am just assuming this)

    Posted 6 years ago #

  28. Stickman
    Member

    My manager was ranting about this article today and 20mph in general. Turns out he got stopped by the police for doing 29mph in a 20 zone. He didn't get fined.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  29. toomanybikes
    Member

    http://road.cc/content/news/239833-global-study-calls-20mph-speed-limit-standard-built-areas

    Arguably a bad headline from a report which doesn't actually look at any 20mph zones.

    However, the tables in the study itself (page 70 onwards) are amazing.

    https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/speed-crash-risk.pdf

    No outliers in direction between speed controls and crash/injury rates. (I'm assuming the variation in metric is due to data availability rather than cherry picking).

    I see no reason other than convenience to believe 30 mph to 20mph limits would be any different.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  30. gembo
    Member

    @ too many bikes

    very compelling data. Think I spotted one wee mistake in one table (it is a decrease but they have an Israeli example where they say 90 --> 100 and I think other way round)

    Agreed that whilst the lowest speed in the report is 50kmh the general principal of reduction in fatality/serious injuries linked to reduction in speed will hold.

    I wager this won't be acceptable to some though who feel 20mph / 32kmh is as you say inconvenient

    Also liked that the limit of say 60kmh resulted in speeds of 57.5 kmh in Sweden and the reduction to 50Kmh reduced speeds to 52.5kmh. Well I am not liking the naughty swedes but I am liking that lowering spped limits does lower speeds. (I am guessing mostly through changing signs rather than much enforcement).

    Also not going on holiday to Hungary where they are putting up spped limits with concomitant increase in fatalities/serious injuries.

    Posted 6 years ago #

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