My way of negotiating tram tracks esp at the Haymarket is to pull over, stop, turn the bicycle at a 90 degree angle and cross them. I can't do bunny hops. That is crap design. If car tyre wide grooves appeared in the road that a car driver had to negotiate that way on a main thoroughfare drivers too would complain. And they would get whiplash at worst - not broken bones.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
"Tram fall cyclists to sue ‘negligent’ council"
(247 posts)-
Posted 9 years ago #
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Ok, are we saying we cannot redesign Haymarket? If so then yes I would avoid it, in a crossing through the junction sense as I do. I do skirt the junction if I am heading east past the station and take a left through towards Grosvenor Hilton so only cross one track.
I then take the cycle super highway along george St and exit to princes St. I have a line there that gets me over the first track onto narrow strip of Tarmac beyond the southern track of the northern line but tight to traffic island. This works unless there is a tram. I take this line as it then means I only have one more track to cross in a single manoeuvre and can do it about 60 degrees down towards waverley.
I
I try to take a primary position and go slow largely to do with taxis and pedestriansPosted 9 years ago # -
@Nelly
Yes I am experienced cyclist.
Interesting you chose to question my cycling experience rather than my ability to estimate angles.
I cycle down Haymarket Yards between the east / west tram tracks and cross the eastbound pair near the traffics lights at the bottom.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Dangerous - so every cyclist who has fallen at Haymarket should curse their luck that they don't have your incredible bike handling skills?
It's one way of looking at it, I suppose.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Morningsider
Where have I said that ?
Have you fallen at Haymarket ?
Previously I guestimated that above 99% cross safely (successfully). Anyone going to argue that it's less than 99.9% ?
Do they all have "incredible bike handling skills" ?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Part of the group claim that is ongoing relates to generating publicity to encourage cyclists who have come off but not suffered any injury to also report the incident to try to establish what the rates are.
The rate is less than 100% crossing unscathed. Data required before we can make a more accurate estimate.
Anecdotally the Haymarket junction is the problematic one. A cyclist was hit by a tram at a crossing point near edinburgh park. The other anecdotal evidence I am aware of is all from Haymarket.
There is a flaw in the layout here for cyclists and indeed this is also where buses in the wrong lane have hit trams.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@gembo
The tram bus incidents were not at Haymarket.
They were near the Traffic lights at Manor Place.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Yes sorry, I was not specific enough there, just after the Haymarket junction headin East, the layout is still such that it allows for error in a way that good layout would avoid.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@dangerous what would it take for you to be convinced that it is the infrastructure rather than the cyclists?
is there a threshold of accidents per cyclist?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Without knowing how many people ride through the junction and how many crashes there are it's pretty difficult to make much progress with the x% threshold argument.
We could look at it the other way though. The trams have only been operating for ~7 months and there are over 60 people with serious enough injuries to be litigating with the council.
Take a look at the map plotting cycling accidents and you have to include, literally, about twenty square miles of the city centre to get the same number of incidents over a TEN YEAR period.
There are probably at least 10-20 people not suing the council for every one with a case, I should think. (The same issue impacts the general stats though.)
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Dave
The tram tracks were there before the trams went into public service.
Think the roads re-opened about 15 months ago.
Posted 9 years ago # -
The Haymarket shambles wasn't set up 15 months ago. The current design went live with the trams.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Can you lot not just get out & have a bike ride, instead of arguing on here?
Posted 9 years ago # -
@stiltskin
I have pointed out the facts please accept them or prove me wrong.
Go to youtube. The "Haymarket tram lines" video is dated 15/10/2013
The current design did not go live with the trams. Since the tracks were laid there have been small revisions such as the addition of the jug handle.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@edd1e_h
Been out already thanks this morning and it involved crossing tram tracks at Haymarket six times.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Dangerous - You stated previously "IMHO it is not possible to be in total control and then fall on the tracks."
Clearly, you think that cyclists who have fallen at Haymarket were not in total control of their bikes. As you haven't fallen, then you must always have been in total control. A person who has total control of their bike on tricky terrain must have better bike handling skills than one who isn't. Unless you want to argue that you have just been lucky every time and the others unlucky at least once - which would invalidate your argument about the impact of the tram infrastructure.
Posted 9 years ago # -
a propos of nothing, I came off on the princes street tram tracks when that's the only place they were (dark, snow, wet, bus behind); I've raced four cyclocross races this season and stayed rubber side down in every single one. I agree with gembo, this is circular, don't think anyone is going to have their position swayed. Is chdot in total control of this thread ;)
Note the smiley, the SMILEY!
Posted 9 years ago # -
My bike handling skills are not great. My marathon plus tyres are 28mm. I avoid tram lines at Haymarket but as previously stated, do have a line from St andrews sq across princes street that I can take.
However, I do not tempt fate with the p-word. I am not particularly superstitious but do not like using the p-word as annoyingly I then get one (even saying this is going to influence my karma).
Of course there will have been numerous other times I have punctured without mentioning thE p-word for weeks. I just don't notice on thOse occasions. I believe this is a form of generalising from single salient exemplar And not seeking counter arguments.
Anyway, everyone take care out there and I second WC's suggestion to Sir CHdot to put this wee thread to beddy byes.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Wilmington's Cow
Kudos to you for admitting your off on Princes Street.
Does anyone admit to coming off due to the tram tracks at Haymarket ?
Posted 9 years ago # -
@gembo @Wilmington's Cow
Why would want to close a discussion on a discussion forum ?
If the infrastructure is so dangerous then that evidence should be easy to provide. The only evidence given is that some cyclists have fallen off therefore the infrastructure must be dangerous.
Posted 9 years ago # -
My best 'off' was when I attempted to carry some shopping draped over the handlebars, as a student. It works perfectly except that I set off too enthusiastically and swung a perfectly good Tropicana carton into the spokes on the first pedal stroke. Swan dive...
Although, having said that I am immediately reminded of two separate occasions where I have split a chain pulling away from stationary and taken quite savage tumbles. On the first occasion I took the precaution of attending A&E as my knee had swollen up but just had to HTFU.
While typing this however I have thought about four additional amazing crashes I have been involved in:
Just when I started getting serious about riding I somehow sheared the rear quick release on a bike and the rear wheel came out of the drop-outs while powering onto a gyratory and landed me on the back of my head (!)
I also got hit head-on by another cyclist, who came at me on the pavement where a bus stop prevented him seeing much ahead. Thought I had smashed my jaw that time, but actually I was completely fine. Funny in retrospect. It's on YouTube as I think are a couple of these others.
Then there was the time that I got stung by a bee, lost control and literally barrel-rolled the bike into a huge pile of nettles on the NEPN.
Finally the first day I ever rode a fixed bike, I tried to see how fast I could go downhill, and the answer was really quite fast (well over 30mph, spinning at about 200rpm). As soon as I thought about slowing down I locked out my legs and it flung me off onto the verge. Had to throw out my shorts as they had so much twigs etc. embedded into them.
Then (just before I stop, I promise) I fell the only time I tried to ride the velodrome at Meadowbank. Too cocky and wasn't going fast enough to keep the bike leaned and the "upstream" pedal struck the deck. Burned right through my shorts.
Maybe I need to fall off at Haymarket to complete the set?
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Think the roads re-opened about 15 months ago."
Your response to the observation that there have been as many crashes at Haymarket in six months as for ten years on all other city centre roads combined is... that it's actually been more like a year?
I'm convinced. Nothing unusual about this junction at all.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"The only evidence given is that some cyclists have fallen off therefore the infrastructure must be dangerous"
erm. no. the evidence is that cyclists are (1) required to behave in ways that contradict the council's advice on how to navigate the tracks safely. and (2) as a result many have fallen off.
btw, there are a LOT of experienced cyclists on this forum ( personally i've had offs in Africa, Canada and the UK,) but Dave's probably the only one who's ridden Paris-Brest-Paris. (edited - i thought palmares was just races ridden, but saw definition saying it is races won?? that shows me for showing off!!)
my first big off was poor bike handling over ovor infra (tarmac had been removed from a car park i used as a short cut) and I didn't handle the shift from tarmac to gravel well, given it was a route i'd been riding since i got my first bike; the second was mechanical - pedal sheared off under inauspicious circumstances; the third was a dooring; fourth caused by me trying avoid a pedestrian on a slippery leaf mulch surface - guess that's my bike handling again? or not....????).
Posted 9 years ago # -
It seems clear to me that if you get an accident hotspot, the problem lies not with the people, but with the place.
If the people were at fault, you'd expect the accidents to be more distributed.
Posted 9 years ago # -
ah, but are equally experienced cyclists with good bike handling skills falling? or just weak, poorly skilled ones?
Dangerous thinks that since he is 'experienced' and hasn't fallen, then the reason others have fallen is because they have poor skills.
of course, that assumes that he doesn't have fat tyres, doesn't bunny hop, etc.
unless he considers bunny hopping to be basic street skills that we all should have?
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Dave Wasn't there a something with a post at the bottom of the road around the hill that you could count as an infrastructure-derived off?
Presumably Spokes will know if there have been many on the eastbound bit of Princes Street where the tracks turn on/off, though as there's only one lane (and a central divider to discourage u-turns from oncoming traffic) you can only be harassed by one vehicle at a time, unlike Haymarket.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@dangerous
Reasons abound for asking the fat controller to fermer Le marmite.
In no particular order
1. Circuitous discussion
2. Pointless discussion
3. Boring discussion
4. Ultra pedantic discussion (normal pedantry fine)
5. Presence of trollingI am sure there are more. However the Lord CHdot is a very tolerant deity and rarely closes a thread for 1. Through to 4.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Another day already.
"rarely closes a thread for 1. Through to 4."
Just as well eh Mr. G...
As for 5, don't remember doing it for that either.
It takes two to prolong an argument.
Posted 9 years ago # -
It takes two to prolong an argument.
No it doesn't
Posted 9 years ago # -
It takes AT LEAST two. Surely.
Posted 9 years ago #
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