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"Tram fall cyclists to sue ‘negligent’ council"

(247 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by chdot
  • Latest reply from sallyhinch

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  1. PeteJohnston
    Member

    I came off at Haymarket on Thursday after approaching the tracks at around 45 degrees. I couldn't approach the tracks at 90 degrees since it would have involved me shooting out into the path of the car behind me. While I was trying to spot my bike computer that had come off and skittered across the road three guys cycled past. One of them came off about 20 feet further on.

    I wouldn't consider myself to be particularly experienced or skillful since I have only been biking for 40 years but it does seem a big coincidence that so many have come off at the same place.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. SRD
    Moderator

    Given the way James may's vehicle juddered over them, we might conclude that St Petersburg tram tracks have similar upstand to edinburgh ones.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    Welcome PJ.

    Pity that that had to be your first post!

    "I have only been biking for 40 years"

    So I'm sure you'll be able to add plenty of experience here.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. Instography
    Member

    @Dangerous
    Yes, I understood your questions to WC perfectly well. I asked what your interest is in the action against the Council.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. Kenny
    Member

    I've not come off there (so far, touch wood), but I've only gone that way about 4 times in total. I have yet to figure out how best to traverse that section of road / tram track when heading westwards. I think I'm going to have to go along in the daylight one day, stop for 5 minutes on the pavement, and try to figure out what the best line of attack is.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. Instography
    Member

    I would add no more details about any comings off on or near the tram tracks. Dangerous is making notes.

    Here's a man who fell off when he was distracted looking for his bike computer. I put it to you PeteJohnston that you simple weren't paying proper attention to the road. The tram tracks are not to blame. I put it to you that you were too busy looking for your bike computer to cross the tracks at an appropriate angle. <aside> My Lord, if I could just explain that a so called "bike computer" is not a computer at all. It is a small electronic device that some of these cyclists use to measure their speed and distance. Some of them use sophisticated, and I might say extremely expensive, gadgets to collect data to upload to a website called Strava. Yes, indeed my Lord, it is derived from the Latin "to work". In any event the main purpose of Strava seems to be to win races, to be King of the Mountains, even if there are no mountains in the vicinity.</aside> Perhaps the witness could tell us if he was racing anyone, or a bus perhaps, when he failed to apply the guidance given by the Council on how cyclists should negotiate the tram tracks.

    My Lord, the defence rests.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. Dangerous
    Member

    @Instography, everyone

    Paranoid ?

    I am a cyclist and Edinburgh council tax payer.

    I have no professional interest / involvement in the case.

    Sufficient ?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. Instography
    Member

    Me, paranoid? Only when posters unknown to me come around showing too much interest in a particular aspect of a topic, asking pointed questions and pursuing individuals, making them look like they have a goal in mind.

    So, no, it's not sufficient for me. I've spent too long on forums (that truly highlight the level of civility on this one) plagued by trolls, astroturfers and sock puppets to properly trust any member I haven't actually met.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. PeteJohnston
    Member

    pst: @Insto
    The bike non-computer came off when I came off. To within the milli-second. Part of the deal or just another coincidence? I only looked for it AFTER my miscalculation with the tracks. I guess that I didn't make the sequence of events clear enough :)
    The main point was actually that in order to cross them at 90 degrees one has to veer out in front of the other traffic.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. Nelly
    Member

    Had to look up "astroturfer" and "sock puppet".

    Dearie me

    Some people need a life, eh?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    Now all, calm down.

    There's a new member here...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. Nelly
    Member

    Have we got a Duncan to go with PJ?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. Dangerous
    Member

    @PeteJohnston

    Thanks for sharing.

    I assume you were travelling west ?

    How many times have you gone that way ?

    That is some coincidence.

    I am also aware of a fall last week. I heard it 2nd hand. It was 20 year old man. Wed or Thu. "fell off avoiding a pedestrian"

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. PeteJohnston
    Member

    @chdot
    Newbie and enjoying it so far :-D

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. Instography
    Member

    @PeteJohnston
    Yeah, sorry, I understood your post. I was distorting it for effect.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. Instography
    Member

    @Dangerous
    Call me paranoid but still looking for details.

    Your posts work really well if I read them in Anthony Hopkins' Hannibal voice.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. Dangerous
    Member

    @Instography

    Thanks for a very, very funny post and also to lower your paranoia levels.

    "highlight the level of civility on this forum"

    Care to review this thread and read the comments directed at me.

    I joined this forum (April 2013 pre-trams) to defend myself after an Administrator called me weird. For looking at a bicycle!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. Instography
    Member

    @Dangerous
    I have, of course, reviewed both this thread and all of your posts.

    Review the thread? If you want to know what makes the antennae twitch, then I'll tell you that:

    (a) you call yourself Dangerous. Really?
    (b) your first post in this thread. In particular the idea that you can "allow them to be", which is a weird construction if ever I saw one. Like the tram tracks are the bogey man and you can defeat them with the power of positive thinking.
    (c) mainly your second post, your response to SRD with the "Feel free to provide your own estimates and try to make them relevant". That was my Hannibal moment. "Feel free" is rarely used in anything other than a patronising way. Spoken it can work but written down it always has a "give it your best shot" ring to it. To follow it up with the word "try" means it has such a pitying ring to it. A real piece of condescension. You can't read it in anything other than a supercilious tone. It's like listening to Hans Gruber talk to John McClane. Sorry but you lost my vote with that post.

    Maybe you you typed with a spring in your step and it all read so differently but, hey, this is text and we need to deal with what we're given. ;-)

    The comments directed at you? Why should I care about the comments directed at you? I know these people and trust them. I read them in their own voices. I need to find a voice for you.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. Dave
    Member

    @Dangerous, the topic I referred to above is here. You will see that I enjoy playing devil's advocate when I feel the consensus gets a bit comfortable. :)

    It would be interesting to see what happens here should there be an incident involving both the tram line (council universally responsible) and a pedestrian (cyclist universally responsible).

    Perhaps our heads will explode.

    In a very gentle CCE way, of course. Other forums are considerably more boisterous (try googling for Councillor Michael Stanton and take a look at the first result).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. gembo
    Member

    I had a jimi Hendrix album in the 1980s. Live but from a series of gigs and some after he had ditched The Experience. At one point jimi is talking to the audience when an altercation breaks out with security and audience members. Jimi addresses the congregation thus:-

    hold on, let's not get frantic down there, those cats with the bebop hats, they're living in the past, they're living in the past

    Link to blistering guitar intro.

    Now the album was cheap and a double album, also very yellow. The cd is small and I cannot find this dialogue on it.

    (Note as my earlier request for sequestration of the assets of this thread was not found acceptable, I am going with off topic posts from now on)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. PeteJohnston
    Member

    @Dangerous
    You assume correctly - I was travelling to the wild west. I've been going that way 3 or 4 times a week for the last year and a half since I got a job in the centre of Edinburgh. This depends on the wind on the Forth road bridge - too strong and I wimp out. I had a couple of scary moments this morning :)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. Roibeard
    Member

    Whilst I've not come off on the tram lines, I only routinely cross at the bottom of the Mound - and that requires ignoring the road markings and taking a driver confusing line (straight over, then hard right after the crossing, then left to follow the road), which often results in drivers attempting to squeeze past, if I don't couple the manoeuvre with a hard stare...

    Mrs Roibeard has come off on Princes Street, westbound, by simple virtue of trying to overtake a stationary bus.

    Robert

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. wingpig
    Member

    Not only do I have my own video evidence of someone having a (recovered) rear-wheel shimmy but there's video evidence of me witnessing it.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. Dangerous
    Member

    @Instography
    Your post to me deserves a proper response.

    "I have, of course, reviewed both this thread and all of your posts."
    Not sure if you are serious ? Are you ? What were your criteria ? Did I pass ?

    (a) YES
    (b) Progress at last. I'll explain in more detail later.
    (c) English is my native language. Your comment "Feel free" is rarely used in anything other than a patronising way." is news to me. I even googled it. Anyone care to comment ?

    "try to make them relevant" - Guilty.
    SRD did not address my argument. She deflected it. I responded badly to that post. My intentions are good.

    @SRD I now realise whom you are as opposed to 3 letters on my screen. Thank you for having an open mind and asking some questions on this thread. I will reply to your questions.

    Re "comments directed at you"
    My negative comment to SRD cannot have helped me.
    There have been numerous attempts to close the thread. I have had to respond to lots of invention about what I have and have not said. There have been attempts to discredit me rather than focus on the point I am trying to make.

    I presume this comment from WC was aimed at me ? "deliberate antagonist taking extreme positions"

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. Dangerous
    Member

    Typical.

    Trying to do more analysis and research for this thread.

    There are hardly any westbound cyclists @Haymarket today.
    There was also a bump involving a car and a van travelling eastbound from Dalry Road.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. I think every forum I've ever been a member of, has someone who thinks that particular forum is more civil, or better, or more informed than most other forums.

    Personally, I've never noticed much of a difference, including here. They all have their fair share of members from across the spectrum of human natures and behaviours.

    My rule of thumb is the better (friendlier) forums are the ones where the majority of members feel comfortable enough to post regularly.

    As for Haymarket, I find it OK. Yes the trams lines have made it more difficult to traverse safely. I almost always stay in the outside lane heading west. So long as I can indicate to following traffic that I need a bit of space and patience, its not too difficult a manoeuvre.

    Of course, it shouldn't take that level of concentration and trying to interact with drivers.

    I never feel comfortable or safe if i get stuck in the inside lane.

    This entire junction really must be a nightmare for less confident cyclists. It wouldn't surprise me at all if many just avoid it.

    I'm not 100% sure, but isn't this part of a national cycling route? No such designated route should be the subject of so many accidents to cyclists.

    I'm not surprised many have been tempted by litigation. I do think the council have failed in their duty of care to cyclists with what they have done to Haymarket.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. Dangerous
    Member

    There have been a few questions regarding what is in or out of scope for "Haymarket"

    I'll share my opinion for review.

    I think there are 3 things for cyclists near Haymarket that are "risky"

    1) Cycling westbound from Morrison Street, West Maitland Street towards Roseburn
    2) Cycling westbound using Haymarket Yards
    3) Cycling eastbound from Dalry Road towards West Maitland Street or Grosvenor Street

    2) I personally find this more risky than 1) I am not aware of any accidents here. I came close travelling eastbound here due to my inattention and going too fast. IMHO you need to maintain a tight line away from the Eastbound tram track
    3) Not aware of any accidents here. I thought there would be some. Increasing the angle you cross the tracks (towards 90 degrees) invites a left hook from Grosvenor Street bound vehicle if you are heading to WMS.

    I am defining the scope as 1)
    Almost all cycle / tram track incidents are for westbound cyclists in the <100m from Dalry Road to the jug handle exit.

    @Dave said "a huge volume of incidents - possibly more than the whole of Edinburgh city centre put together"

    It is MASSIVELY significant that there is a huge cluster of incidents in this short section of road.

    What I want to do is look more closely at what is actually causing these incidents.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. Morningsider
    Member

    This is getting silly. Section 1 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 places a duty on a roads authority to maintain roads included in the list of public roads within its area.

    The question here is - does the Council owe a duty of care to cyclists crossing the tram tracks at Haymarket and, if so, is it failing in that duty due to the new road design.

    My understanding is that three tests are applied to decide whether a duty of care applies.

    Forseeability
    Proximity
    Considerations of fairness, justice and reasonableness

    I would argue that the falls at Haymrket were entirely forseeable. Proximity is a given - all the falls are on a public road. It is also fair and reasonable to expect the roads authority to take proportionate steps to protect cyclists from potential injury. Especially where cyclists are unable to cross the tracks in the safe manner specified by the authority itself.

    Obviously, its up to the courts to decide. However, I imagine it's brown trousers time over at the Council's legal office.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. Dangerous
    Member

    @SRD

    @SRD asked the following - "Are equally experienced cyclists with good bike handling skills falling? or just weak, poorly skilled ones?"

    My initial answer was "Good question afaik we don't know. IMHO it is a spectrum."

    I have been thinking about her question and I am going to change my opinion.

    I think that the "cyclists falling" are almost exclusively "experienced cyclists"

    That is my opinion. I'll show how I arrived at my conclusion later which will allow review and comment.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Morningsider

    Thanks for that summary. I'd reached much the same conclusion by a rather dodgy method. I considered the situation where the tram infrastructure caused motor cars to overturn where they had not previously overturned, injuring the people driving them and damaging the cars.

    It seemed unlikely to me that anyone would tolerate this situation or attempt to classify the incidents according to the level of experience of the drivers. I'm also fairly sure that the drivers' insurance companies would enter into a conversation with the people responsible for the carriageway.

    @gembo

    Do you like circuses? I do.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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