CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Events, rides etc.

Harrison Park Feeder Ride to PoP 2015

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  1. Greenroofer
    Member

    I've set up a Facebook event for the Harrison Park Feeder Ride to PoP 2015.https://www.facebook.com/events/704175539703454

    Tell your friends, councillors, colleagues and whoever that they can sign up for it. I'll update it as we get closer to the event.

    There are two great videos showing what the 2014 one was like.

    It would be great to have some help to organise this, particularly on the day of the event, so please PM me if you'd like to be involved.

    There will be stuff like...

    • Having bike trailers for picking up small children who run out of steam en route
    • Being available to marshal if we don't have a police escort
    • Welcoming people to the park and telling them about the route and stuff
    • Making and distributing flags and posters
    • Supporting the 'Unfeeder ride' back to HP

    All offers of help gratefully received

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. fimm
    Member

    Unfortunately, I cannot be involved this year - I won't be at PoP at all. Boyfriend Of Fimm is doing a race that day and I need to go along. Which is a pain.

    However I'm happy to put the Feeder Ride page back up on my blog (it is still there, just hidden - it would just be a matter of turning it back on and making sure the dates are correct) - would you like me to do that?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. sallyhinch
    Member

    Glad to hear about the 'unfeeder' ride - let me know about details of that too, as it's something a lot of people mention in the feedback we get. Organising a muster point proved tricky last year, which was the first time we tried an officially organised 'unfeeder' ride, so if you think we need somewhere for groups to gather that's clearly marked, let me know and we'll try and arrange it. (A bike with a large sound system proved the solution last year, but that's not everyone's cup of tea)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. Greenroofer
    Member

    Just had this response from Police Scotland, which is a bit of a downer...

    "Police Scotland policy is that we do not support ANY cycling event on open roads, due to the high risk of injury etc. Pedal on Parliament is a closed route event protected by a TTRO and is essentially a demonstration and the only cycle event we police in the city"

    I don't know if this is is a new policy (certainly wasn't an issue last year), but it seems to have wider implications than just this feeder ride. For example, I'm sure I've seen Police cyclists in chdot's pictures of the Sciennes Primary rides, which I assume also don't have TTRO's in place for them.

    There's also some interesting tension for me between the policy being in place 'because of the high risk of injury etc', and the signficantly higher risk that there will be an injury, altercation or traffic disruption if the police aren't there...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "I'm sure I've seen Police cyclists in chdot's pictures of the Sciennes Primary rides"

    Yes, was not a regular feature. Possibly not since last PoP.

    "Police Scotland policy is that we do not support ANY cycling event on open roads"

    That's either 'new' or 'made up' or just ambiguous. I wonder if Scottish Cycling knows.

    If true/universal seems to mean "support" as in "help".

    I don't think that all HP feeders had a Police presence.

    It may discourage some people/parents, but obviously no chance of feeder ride(s) being cancelled.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. SRD
    Moderator

    Might make sense to go up spy law and via leamington walk?

    It's not that we can't do kings w/out police, but it takes a while

    (Sorry this doesn't respond to broader issue)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    "There's also some interesting tension for me between the policy being in place 'because of the high risk of injury etc',"

    I thank that is a valid concern, and may be worth asking for clarification (don't know what of exactly!)

    Might ask if that is a new and Scotland wide ruling, if so when - and can you see the original document/context.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    What about P4S??

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. Greenroofer
    Member

    Been doing a bit of online digging (@SRD, you have email). I don't think I have a leg to stand on at this stage so don't intend to challenge anyone. Whatever happened last year was probably an aberration...

    Looks to me that any 'procession' (and the definition seems to be broad enough to include many organised bike rides) should give 28 days' notice to the local authority and police. This will then allow the necessary traffic regulation orders to be put in place. I don't think these necessarily need to close a road, but what they do do is give the Police the power to direct traffic. There seems to be some thought that without this the Police Officers would be directing traffic without authority and are then personally liable for any accidents.

    So P4S (which I am sure has given such notice) would be covered. The Sciennes Primary ride might want to do so in future too.

    If there is a PoP 2016, and if I were to organise the Feeder Ride from HP for that, I would certainly make an application and get a Traffic Regulation Order if I could.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    "So P4S (which I am sure has given such notice) would be covered."

    "closed route event protected by a TTRO"

    Maybe that's different from what I understand as "closed road" - big stage races and a few sportifs.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. Roibeard
    Member

    There seems to be some thought that without this the Police Officers would be directing traffic without authority and are then personally liable for any accidents.

    I think police officers have the permanent authority to direct traffic (unlike civilians), so can do so without a road closure.

    "Authorised persons" may signal for traffic to stop or go, and these include police officers, highways agency traffic officers, and school crossing patrols.

    I'm guessing traffic wardens (rather than civil enforcement officers) can do it too, as I've seen them stand in when traffic signals were out of action.

    Whilst there hasn't been a police presence for the Sciennes cycle in a while, I did co-opt some convenient officers to let us pass through a set of traffic signals at red last summer.

    Actual accompanying police were a bit of a pain (as I recall, and in my opinion only), as they insisted on a very long, hazardous single file approach, resulting in danger from drivers turning through the ride.

    We now, without police escorts (probably best not to Google that!), simply fill the entire city-bound carriageway, resulting in a short, thick bunch, which clears junctions much quicker and can be overtaken in a much shorter distance.

    I think Police Scotland don't wish to actually escort or marshal the event, rather than requiring a TTRO to be able to direct traffic - the TTRO being required to close the road.

    I don't think this has changed since last year, so there's still the possibility that a passing officer might choose to direct traffic at the King's Theatre, but that is unlikely to be promised, as "operational reasons" could prevent their attendance.

    Robert

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. Greenroofer
    Member

    Given that we don't have any police this year, it would be great to have a bit of help to arrange to get 100+ people safely from Harrison Park to the Meadows. If you're willing to help (basically by being supportive and confident with less-confident cyclists), please PM me.

    I'm thinking that it would be good to have stuff for people to fix PoP materials to their bikes. I've still got the HP Feeder Ride flag on the tagalong from PoP1. Again, if you'd be willing to lend a hand with helping others do their bikes at HP, please PM me.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. biketrain
    Member

    @Greenroofer. Are you still looking for some help?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. Greenroofer
    Member

    @biketrain - yes absolutely very definitely still looking for help as I've not had any offers yet and am beginning to get a bit concerned about managing 100 people on my own..

    Things I'd be keen to hear that people are willing to do at HP are:
    1) Help people decorate their bikes with PoP posters, flags, 'HP Feeder Ride' flags on poles (all of which I will supply)
    2) Go at the front of the ride from HP to the Meadows to show people the way
    3) Impose some order at key intersections. Ideally (I think) we'd have nominated people at places like the roundabouts on Spylaw Road, the exit to Bruntsfield and the Toucan Crossing to Bruntsfield Links to encourage the cyclists to stop and go appropriately and to make best use of the road space.
    4) Lead an Unfeeder Ride home.

    Any offers of help very gratefully accepted!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. daisydaisy
    Member

    Here's a link to last year's thread on this
    2014's discussion on Harrison feeder ride route

    It's got links to maps of the routes under discussion. I don't think we can do the King's Theatre one without police support.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. Stickman
    Member

    I was planning on doing the feeder from Roseburn but it looks like you need a hand! I can come along to Harrison Park.

    Send me a PM if you think I can help.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. Chug
    Member

    I can help too - I have pm'd you.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    Looks like HP will have biggest feeder again.

    Suggest some people ride route(s) and look out for problems.

    One problem is the Bruntsfield Place section and whether ride tries to 'mass' so that nothing can overtake.

    Also decision (probably on the day) about whether some riders 'too slow' to expect everyone else to wait.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. Greenroofer
    Member

    How about this as a plan...

    We have two routes.
    Route 1 (the blue route) is for people with very young children (chdot's 'too slow' category). This goes via the towpath, Lochrin Place, dismount, cross at placebo crossing, walk to Tarvit Street, ride to North Meadow Walk. This just needs someone to show people the way, to prevent carnage a blind bridges and perhaps a back marker. The towpath can't cope with many at once, so this is definitely the minority route.
    Route 2 (the pink route) is for most people: all adults without children, families with older children. This goes via the route on Facebook. I think daisydaisy has kindly agreed to go at the front of this one. The challenges I see with this route are (1)the bit through Bruntsfield and (2)the toucan crossing onto Bruntsfield links. While we can take the full width of the road to prevent overtaking on this section, we need a strategy for coping with the ride being broken into chunks as joins Bruntsfield Place, and a way of turning right safely at the crossing so that we don't end up with a lump of people stuck on the road holding up traffic but unable to turn right.

    @chug & @stickman - you have PM

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    "we need a strategy for coping with the ride being broken into chunks as joins Bruntsfield Place,"

    Doesn't "we can take the full width of the road to prevent overtaking on this section" deal with that?

    Key is to keep together(?)

    "and a way of turning right safely at the crossing so that we don't end up with a lump of people stuck on the road holding up traffic but unable to turn right."

    Have a couple of people to go ahead. One to judge when to press button, other to stand in front of southbound traffic (after lights have turned red!) to make sure it doesn't move IF lights change while 'mass' still crossing.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. ARobComp
    Member

    I would really recommend sticking together with everyone, and try not to make it too complicated. I would suggest employing blockers at junction (just get some guys on bikes to sit across the traffic flow and make sure everyone gets through) this is going to cause less disruption than 2 rides IMHO and also reduce stress for everyone.

    This is my personal view and not the view of POP etc.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. Greenroofer
    Member

    @chdot the 'as [it] joins Bruntsfield Place' bit depends on whether we aim to get the whole ride out onto Bruntsfield Place in one go. Given that we don't have Police and won't necessarily be able to stop traffic, so may have to give way to northbound traffic, I think we should plan that we don't get them out in one go. I'm imagining a scenario where head of ride arrives at Bruntsfield Place and waits for a gap in the traffic. At that gap we get as many people as we can onto Bruntsfield Place where they occupy the full width of the northbound lane and proceed smartly north to the toucan crossing where someone is waiting to press the button for them. The rest of the ride waits at the junction onto Bruntsfield Place for the next gap in the traffic and then we rinse and repeat as necessary.

    This means having one or two at the pelican crossing as you suggest, and someone at the junction onto Bruntsfield Place to say "Go Go Go" to the riders there.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. Chug
    Member

    "and a way of turning right safely at the crossing so that we don't end up with a lump of people stuck on the road holding up traffic but unable to turn right."

    But we ARE traffic, and we need to turn right - just like a line of cars would be waiting....we can't all use the strange hook turn!

    Merchiston Crescent onto Bruntsfield place more problematic I agree.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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