Currently the city is mainly implementing ATAP, which means 'family routes' with all the weaknesses we have discussed elsewhere.
What do we want ATAP 2 to look like?
Segregated lanes on arterial routes is at the top of my list.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Arterial routes
(27 posts)-
Posted 9 years ago #
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Segregated lanes on arterial routes is at the top of my list.
I reckon that's the only thing that will demonstrate serious intent.
It's also the logical conclusion of the Council's draft street design guide, IIRC.
Posted 9 years ago # -
vibe on the other thread seems to be 'reduction of cars in city centre'.
wish I didn't think that was doomed to failure. suppose it depends on how many greens we manage to elect.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Srd - i might have started that vibe...
Having lived outside Oxford, I got used to city where private car use was discouraged. You got used to it and embraced alternative methods.
High parking charges (if you could find a space), bus lanes in from the P+R's, roads blocked to private vehicles etc. all contributed to making it difficult to take a car inside the ringroad. Most of the time we didn't.
I agree that more direct arterial cycle routes should be in ATAP2 to improve the 'carrot' for AT but we shouldn't shy away from using the 'stick' too, not least to free up space. Without it I fear we'll be compromised to mediocraty.
Posted 9 years ago # -
SRD - completely agree. We need segregated routes on key arterial roads to allow fast, safe movement by bike from where people live to where they learn, work, shop and play. 20mph residential streets should allow for reasonably safe access to these routes for most people.
There is a precedent for this - the Greenways, which took away a huge amount of road space from general traffic compared to what is needed for cycle routes. The city didn't grind to a halt.
Posted 9 years ago # -
hankchief - yes Oxford good at restricting car use - an example I use regularly at cycle forum type stuff. less good at bike infra - practically non-existent.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Srd - interesting. I never cycled there - we were too far away.
Posted 9 years ago # -
i was there right when the High street and Cornmarket were being closed to through traffic. interesting times.
.the other thing they do is massively restrict parking on new developments. so when the Oxford club was built, they were allowed only 2 disabled spaces and their website just says 'no parking' http://www.club.ox.ac.uk/contact-a-information/28-parking
when Edinburgh does that rather than massive underground car parks, I'll know that the times have changed.
Posted 9 years ago # -
" 'reduction of cars in city centre'
wish I didn't think that was doomed to failure"
Strangely I'm not (currently) that pessimistic.
Obviously it needs some boldness. Which in 'our' context' means Edinburgh councillors.
No chance of Congestion Charging any time soon. Need a clear understanding of what all the traffic is FOR.
CEC has concluded that George Street isn't just a car park for shoppers.
When will it stop 'accepting' that a sizeable proportion of people have to travel to work by car - and that road capacity should just deal with it?
COULD shut WAR (except for buses) - or maybe just at 'rush hours' (perhaps a clearer 'statement').
Reclaim half of Calder Road. What is the merit of those bits of dual-carriageway?
Need some speed, capacity, pollution, journey times etc. data.
"suppose it depends on how many greens we manage to elect"
Presume you mean Greens?
Where? There might be more than two next year at Holyrood because of the list system. But they might well be swamped by even more SNP MSPs, or - if the electorate swings back a bit - could hold the balance of power in some way - it's a big could.
Meanwhile where the decisions that affect 'us' are made - CEC - there's no election for TWO years.
Not worth second guessing that one.
"What do we want ATAP 2 to look like?"
Highly relevant question and worth dealing with.
After PoP (and #GE2015) perhaps work on some serious walk/cycle/ActiveTravel proposals for the current administration to get on with and pressure on ALL parties (and individual candidates) to adopt.
But, needs a wider look at 'transport' and the sort of Edinburgh 'everyone' wants to live and work in.
This is beyond party politics.
Posted 9 years ago # -
This is Friday evening 'rush' hour into town!
Posted 9 years ago # -
Almost relevant here -
"
DAVID Cameron wants the general election to be about the economy, while Ed Miliband is focusing on the health service and the SNP talks about holding the balance of power.
But according to an analysis of Facebook traffic, voters in Edinburgh are more concerned about the environment than any other issue in the election.
South of the Border, health was the most popular topic for discussion on the social media site, followed by the economy, tax, Europe and immigration.
"
Posted 9 years ago # -
Yup, segregated, arterial routes. London Road, Costorphine Road, Clerk Street, Lanark Road etc etc etc. There should be infrastructure there that an 8 year old can use to cycle into town safely.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Lanark road west too narrow but the path on the river could be tarmacadamed as it is until Colinton dell without too much harm to the countryside. Others even on here don't necessarily agree with that.
Lanark road is sort of dual carriageway already and only bikes and buses use the inside lane. But there is large amount of parking in the inside lane. Only stops being two lanes at robertson are and canal would be possible from there as beyond acqueduct?
So wouldn't take too much navvying but public opinion? Also quite a spartan 8 year old?
Posted 9 years ago # -
@gembo you don't seem to be getting into the spirit of the thing. we're talking about taking space from the motorists and making our husbands, wives, brothers and sisters as safe as we want our 8 year olds to be.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I think Gembo is merely reflecting the general 'wisdom' that 'nothing can be done' because 'they' won't like.
'We' like to demonise 'motorists' - but in reality it's only the extreme ones - the ones that really shouldn't be driving (at least not without some serious re-education) and the ones who organise demos that (almost) no-one joins.
Most 'motorists' become "our husbands, wives, brothers and sisters" when they turn off the ignition.
Somehow (it seems) most politicians don't understand this and imagine that people drive into polling booths.
CEC is about to spend a LOT of money on promoting the 20mph scheme and persuading people that they should like it.
I hope it will contain a lot about 'when traffic speeds are lower, more people will want to walk and cycle more. Will you be joining them?'
Posted 9 years ago # -
"suppose it depends on how many greens we manage to elect"
Sadly the Green party seem to be just another socialist party and don't seem to give a monkeys about the environment or planet.
http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2015-scotland-32106132
"The [Green] party revealed three key themes - to end poverty; to keep public services in public hands and to give more power to local communities."
Nothing on the environment, aside from a short one-liner about 'reducing fossil fuel use'. (well, they all say that don't they?)
Posted 9 years ago # -
Number 2: all new developments - e.g. trams, major housing developments, and other infrastructural projects must have segregated infrastructure designed into them.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Posted 9 years ago #
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exactly.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@edd1e_h
Green philosophy starts with social justice. No one cares about the atmosphere or seas when they are cold, hungry, scared or drugged, even if they should.
So you make everyone comfortable and then start the conversation about where wealth comes from (workers operating on the natural world) and what wealth is (physical comfort and rich human relations).
That's what I understand the theory to be, anyway. It's about the diametric opposite of the standard political dialogue now, where wealth comes from banks and consists of access to luxury goods.
Posted 9 years ago # -
A very good point IRWATS.
Although I do wonder which countries are more benign to the environment:
Those with a capitalist system e.g. Europe/USA ?
Or those with a socialist system e.g Cuba / former USSR ?
Where does China fit in? They are doing all the manufacturing (or "workers operating on the natural world") for everyone else...
Posted 9 years ago # -
That's what I understand the theory to be, anyway.
It's a pity the Green party don't explain that theory adequately in their flyers to lay-people like me.
Could be losing out on potential votes there...
Posted 9 years ago # -
@edd1e_h
They're not the most forceful bunch, are they? It's their strong point and their weakness at once.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Sadly the Green party seem to be just another socialist party and don't seem to give a monkeys about the environment or planet.
It's often assumed that green parties are "just" about the environmental aspects, but they are a political philosophy founded on four pillars;
- Ecological wisdom
- Social justice
- Grassroots democracy
- Non-violenceIt's a pity the Green party don't explain that theory adequately in their flyers to lay-people like me.
I don't think they bother to try given the dry nature of political theory.
As a paid-up member of the Green party, I do agree with you that I think they need to be more overtly "green"-green i.e. a strongly articulated environmental focus but also the wider benefits of such policies. I'd also agree that they struggle to get their points / ideas across sometimes.
But your average voter may not be all that interested in the environmental side and the Greens have to try and entice voters away from parties like the Lib Dems by appearing to be more about the middle 2 pillars. So electioneering material is probably not truly representative of the party as a whole.
I'm sure you'll find people in the green party whos idea of a transport policy is existing motorways full of electric cars charged by solar panels and wind turbines, but that's not mine.
Not to be confused with Green parties in the US which tend to be radical free-market libertarians.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Posted 9 years ago #
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Anyone got a link to a good article in why direct cycle routes on arterial roads are the bees knees?
Posted 5 years ago # -
Sort of, but ‘too expensive’
“
Whereas you can say to engineers that you need a route that has less than 10% deviation from the nearest direct main road or as the crow flies and they will understand it instantly. They will have no clue what a desire line is and think a direct route will take cyclists directly where they want to put them, which is usually at odds with where they want to go.
“
http://www.urbanmovement.co.uk/uploads/1/4/1/9/14194615/bee_a_champion_urban_movement.pdf
Posted 5 years ago #
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