CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

St George's signs on NCN1

(29 posts)

  1. NiallA
    Member

    Wondered if anyone else had seen the laminated signs put up on the Roseburn path around the red footbridge at Coltbridge Avenue/ Water of Leith Bridge? 8 (I think), 7 of which could be characterised as critical of cyclists (slow down around walkers, dogs etc), 1 that seems to ask cars to stop for zebra crossings (nice drawing, not too relevant in situ?)

    Wondered if this might be an opportunity for some positive outreach around safety (maybe some of us could volunteer to distribute signs along more of the path?), but perhaps get them to think about pedestrian and dog-walker behaviour also? (Highway Code 56 etc) - is this something that Spokes might be good to involve?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  2. wingpig
    Member

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7059&page=62#post-189856

    Within seconds of starting moving again there were a couple of dafty manoeuvres; there's a lot of not-slowing-despite-the-narrow-kinked-path-and-bad-sightlines most days when I go past that bit.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. NiallA
    Member

    Realised that I omitted an explanation above (although maybe clear from context) - the signs seem to have been produced by children from St George's School (some of the younger pupils, judging by the sketches the posters feature)as they carry the school logo.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    If anyone wants to contact them -

    http://www.st-georges.edin.sch.uk/about-us/contact-us

    (Don't seem to be on Twitter!)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "narrow-kinked-path-and-bad-sightlines"

    Perhaps CEC should take a look.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  6. tk
    Member

    I saw them today when I was out running and thought they gave a very negative impression. Incidentally they're far too small to notice on a bike, especially if the rider was going fast and could be more likely to cause an accident as people try to read them.

    I would have hoped a school would be promoting sharing and talking about responsible shared use of the path. Whilst I doubt it's the primary, most problems I've seen are from school age kids drinking and breaking glass bottles.

    Were these posters as a direct result of some accident or incident or are they scaremongering against cyclists?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  7. tk
    Member

    The poster wording was "Respect walkers", "Respect Children" and "Respect Dogs". Maybe some "respect each other" or "respect cyclists" posters are in order

    Posted 8 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    By email

    "

    there has already been some fairly substantial vegetation cut back in this area. We are looking at further options to address the issues in this area (permanent signage, markings, etc) and could consider trying to smooth out the kink in the path.

    Any other suggestions welcome - we have pressure to install chicanes or white line segregation but don't want to go down that route.

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  9. wingpig
    Member

    "Incidentally they're far too small to notice on a bike"

    No: I saw them, from my bike. Also from my bike I've seen plenty of impatient aggression/huffing swerviness from cyclists not prepared to attempt to slow down. Also no broken glass around that bit that I've ever noticed.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  10. ARobComp
    Member

    TBH many schools seem to be whole heartedly supporting an anti cycling/victim blaming rhetoric. My SO got inot an extended discussion with a PC and their "cycling coordinator" who were both referencing headphones and high vis rather too much in staffroom discussions, then when she mentioned having gone to POP the PC seemingly said "Oh you're with THOSE lot are you?" which she took very pointed offence to (more as she thought it'd be funny than because she was particularly offended)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  11. Greenroofer
    Member

    Maybe the signage just reflects the children's experience. They experience being walkers, being children and having dogs. They don't experience cycling (unfortunately) in the same way. Most children experience cycling as a very controlled activity involving lots of protective equipment and lots of worry about perceived danger so they don't ever come into conflict with other people as a cyclist. If they did, they would be creating signs about it...

    It may be an intellectual step to far for them to create signs asking for respect for things that they've not experienced.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  12. wingpig
    Member

    "there has already been some fairly substantial vegetation cut back in this area. We are looking at further options to address the issues in this area (permanent signage, markings, etc) and could consider trying to smooth out the kink in the path."

    The vegetation is not so heavy that it's not possible to see through the kink to the path beyond, but it does require actively peering (and presumably some inclination to act upon the information received, such as by slowing down further if there are clouds of schoolchildren approaching). Smoothing out the kink might conceivably encourage selfish tubes to be selfisher and more tubular, but widening the surface a little on the opposite side from the path up to the bridge might ease things a bit. Instead of badly-implemented maintenance-requiring heavy-handed Crummock-style brick rumblestrips as at Craigleith, what about rumblepaint strips (and a SCHOOL CROSSING) like on the road down through Holyrood Park?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  13. stiltskin
    Member

    I suspect that a greater safety issue is the manner in which the St George's parents park/drive their chelsea tractors at school run time. I must've missed the notices the school have put up to deal with that particular issue.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  14. wingpig
    Member

    I imagine this primarily affects pupils/accompanying parents who are walking some of the way to school, rather than those dropped at the gates in an SUV.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. gembo
    Member

    Noticed new signs on the road up from Herriot watt to Currie. new speed limit 30 mph. Then actually at first house - 20 mph. These signs will hopefully slow speeding cars on the bad bend of the railway bridge. Not sure these signs the girls have produced will cause the one or two high speed cyclists to slow down at the footbridge?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. rbrtwtmn
    Member

    OK so this is indeed an irritation but lest we over-react it should be pointed out that one of my kids has been making 'cyclists need space' posters at school last week...

    And after all it is pretty irritating to have a cyclist charge past without showing any respect and self-control when we're on foot.

    The real issue is that those on foot start to loose out as those on bikes get forced onto space where previously walking was the main activity.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm as irritated by the selfish dog-walkers and walking-bike-haters as the next person... and by stupid 'Cyclists Slow Down' notices - but if we're creative about this maybe we could offer some positive recommendations about how to tackle what is a real issue. And after all we can't really complain about the lack of 'please don't park your tractor outside the school gates' signs - these are all over the place.

    I really like the 'consider other path users' signs.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  17. gembo
    Member

    I have colleagues who work in a different room. When they make their coffee they come to the room I am in, which involves walking past a galley kitchen. Not sure why they don't use that one. When they clean up the mugs, some of these coffee drinkers use the nearer kitchen and place mugs the have taken from faraway kitchen in the cupboard at nearer kitchen. A very amicable colleague in my room lost her favourite pink pig mug in this process. Now she did not blame all coffee drinkers for this crime. No, she said because I was the manager of the team, some of whom engage in the dual kitchen strategy that I was responsible for the disappearance of her mug. Indeed she blamed me in an email.

    Returning to the fray on NEPN many dog walkers are responsible as are many cyclists. The issue is of course to figure out WHO TO BLAME

    Posted 8 years ago #
  18. wingpig
    Member

    There was a marked absence of signs on posts this morning...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    "The issue is of course to figure out WHO TO BLAME"

    I imagine that's irony, but who knows? This is the internet.

    "if we're creative about this maybe we could offer some positive recommendations"

    Well that's been tried before - in a general way.

    http://www.politecycling.info

    This was an initiative from Spokes, it probably could and should be revived/updated.

    I seem to remember that Spokes hoped that someone would 'take the idea on'. Spokes has no staff and not the sort of resources available to many other organisations.

    There's nothing new in all this. Children from Craiglockhart Primary had a campaign about speeding on the canal about 10 years ago. There were similar 'slow down' posters in Roseburn Park, which I think originated at the local school.

    Local initiatives are generally a 'good thing'. Of course it's possible to imagine a class project initiated by a teacher who 'hates cyclists' BUT I very much doubt if that's remotely the case in any of the examples.

    Teachers (and parents) may well regard children as 'more important' than 'cyclists' - and they may well be right.

    This isn't about a 'misguided attack on all cyclists for the actions of a few' - the 'many' (including 'us' of course) shouldn't see this an attack on our 'right to behave reasonably'.

    Perhaps this poster campaign is misguided/counterproductive (I'm not saying it is), but it's unlikely to be the result of one cyclist coming 'a bit close' to one pupil.

    There's clearly a problem at this location. Given CEC's recent record of calling meetings (Jawbone Walk, Barnton golf courses path etc. - with mixed reactions, not least because of the feeling that CEC sometimes reacts 'too' fast to 'small' complaints and fails to see a bigger picture. Yesterday's decision on buslanes encourages that view!!!) I hope it can 'engage' here.

    The bigger picture is that more people are walking and cycling which is a GOOD THING, but existing and new infrastructure sometimes isn't good/enough. In addition there is a need for some sort of addressing of 'anti-social behaviour'.

    Yesterday's transport committee voted on 'harmonising' bus lane times. It also discussed dog mess - as it does. Once it was normal for dogs to do 'what they do, where they do it' and that was it. Then there were bins and 'pick it up campaigns', attitudes changed. Now the Council is putting great efforts into catching and fining "persistent offenders" (well their owners) - including using CCTV.

    I hope that never happens for 'cycling' but it might be useful to put cameras in some locations and see what 'really' happens - and see if anything can be learned.

    'We' (well some if not all) were VERY critical of the Nice Way Code which was based on the notion of cyclists and motorists just being nice to each other...

    It is more reasonable to consider that 'pedestrians' and 'cyclists' are 'closer' - certainly both disadvantaged by the continuing 'advantages' assumed for motor vehicles.

    On Monday there was a Living Streets meeting attended by quite a few CCEers, where there was some 'anti-cycling feeling'.

    So still much to do as people (adults and children) to reduce 'misunderstanding', encourage 'responsible behaviour' - inappropriate speed isn't responsible, unconctrolled dogs and 'unaware' pedestrians too. Though there is difficult balance between 'sharing use' and 'the 'most vulnerable' being able to expect the most respect...

    Paths are not the same as roads, both have rules and expectations - which are not always met.

    It's good that 'we' discuss things and hope to influence behaviours and institutions. It's perhaps time that some (with staff and money) - council(s), Sustrans, Cycling Scotland, Paths for All etc. - looked harder at some of the 'issues'.

    Better designs and maybe some creative promotion/advertising...

    At present councils in Scotland have money for Smarter Choices, Smarter Places projects. Perhaps some of this could be used locally and nationally to improve the awareness and practice of "shared use".

    Posted 8 years ago #
  20. Firedog
    Member

    @wingpig. I saw a cyclist removing them at around 5:45 last night. Didn't stop to ask why.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  21. davidsonsdave
    Member

    "I saw a cyclist removing them at around 5:45 last night"

    That sucks. Whilst I feel that the focus was a little out of balance, the cyclists who bomb down that stretch without consideration for anyone else could do with realising that it is a shared path and if they choose to use it then they have to accept the responsibilities that come with that.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    No doubt school/pupils will feel 'upset'.

    Perhaps some CCE 'path users' could consider contacting to start a discussion(?)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  23. stiltskin
    Member

    While I agree taking the signs away is counter-productive, (I understand there is pressure from the school for chicanes etc.) I think the majority of speed merchants a: wouldn't see the signs in the first place, b: wouldn't care.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  24. Hmmmm. Removing the signs will improve relations with the school and the pupils who put the work in. Oh yes. Doesn't at all then reinforce a negative image of cyclists. Not at all. No matter what you think about the purpose of the signs, or any negativity they create, there's always someone who manages to not only prove them right, but also make things worse.

    *slow hand clap*

    Posted 8 years ago #
  25. Firedog
    Member

    I'm hardly a speed merchant and I only noticed the signs because I saw someone removing them.

    I doubt the increasing number of inconsiderate racers on that path will have seen - or cared if they did see.
    The only ones who will are the extraordinary high proportion of cyclists who are very considerate of other users, and patient around dogs often inconsiderately left to wander around.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  26. gembo
    Member

    Won't have been a speed merchant who removed the signs, they don't slow for anything

    But who would take it upon themselves to remove the signs given the more pressing concerns in the world?

    Most signs that are made by kids then laminated and put out in the rain end up a lovely rainbow rorsarch smudge of colours. Pretty.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  27. daisydaisy
    Member

    I spoke to a couple of older guys at the end of the living streets meeting and they had a much bigger problem with cyclists than drivers. It was hard to hear, because objectively cars take up more space and are more dangerous than bikes, but some bad experiences with cyclists had made a huge impression on these guys. Cycle commuters on the canal going v fast and a cyclist shouting and making rude gestures were complained about. I think the face to face,personal interaction that cyclists have with walkers makes a big impression compared to a more anonymous car. Of course they also complained that bikes don't have number plates!

    It's annoying that cyclists are all grouped together with the few bad ones in a way that drivers and pedestrians are not.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  28. PS
    Member

    I suspect the fact that folk on bikes and on feet are expected to share the same space is a larger factor than any anonymity (stick a helmet and sunglasses on a "racing" cyclist and they become pretty unidentifiable and anonymous as well).

    Throughout the city there are clear demarcations of ground areas for cars, so people walking on them tend to do so in a way that acknowledges the cars' priority - they'll even run to get out of the way rather than cause drivers to slow down.

    The canal's a shared use path without any clear demarcation, so everyone can think they have a right to be there and why should they cede to others? And it is promoted by the Council as a route that bike commuters can use to keep away from traffic. Conflict by design as David Spaven said on Monday (that may have been before you arrived, daisydaisy).

    Posted 8 years ago #
  29. DdF
    Member

    "Well that's been tried before - in a general way.
    http://www.politecycling.info"

    Yes, and a lot more than that over the years!!
    http://www.spokes.org.uk/documents/advice/considerate-cycling/

    As @chdot says, this is not really something that can be tackled on a wide scale by a voluntary organisation. Much of the spokes effort was basically a token effort in response to some particular situation (e.g. politicians getting restless) though certainly with the hope that we might help a bit. Another purpose was to show the politicians that we appreciated the issue, so as to help keep them onside when it came to other topics such as budgets!

    Incidentally we still have loads of copies of the 2012 printed "topics-based" flyer if anyone could use some!

    Posted 8 years ago #

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