CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Leith Walk - Pilrig Street Junction

(24 posts)
  • Started 8 years ago by UtrechtCyclist
  • Latest reply from crowriver

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  1. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Hi all,

    as posted on the other thread, bike lanes on Leith walk would be superb if they were done well, but the current plan is a mess. Much of the reason for this is that the planners couldn't work out how to get the lanes through the Pilrig Street junction.

    Aspa and I came up with this.

    @I came up with two options earlier, here and here which look great, but my understanding is that the council is extremely reluctant to take away pavement space and create conflict between pedestrians and cyclists, and for that reason they didn't want cyclists to be able to cross at the same time as pedestrians or for the segregated lane to be properly on the pavement at the corner by the library.

    Anyway, since this is one of the most important battles that we need to win on the project I thought I'd create a separate thread, any feedback on what we suggested would be great.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. chdot
    Admin

    "the council is extremely reluctant to take away pavement space and create conflict between pedestrians and cyclists"

    Actually that's good to hear.

    'We' need to be clear that we want 'space from cars' not 'space from pedestrians'.

    I thought 'the plan' was to try to reduce traffic on Pilrig Street. Would make sense to remove the left filter.

    Maybe Lothian Buses 'likes' it, but not that many buses turning there.

    Would also be good to sort out some parking to make it easier to cross from Dryden St. to Cambridge Av. (For bikes and peds.)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. robyvecchio
    Member

    I see it now. It would be something as simple as moving the filter lane close to the pavement.

    The feeling I had from the consultation was that they want to reduce turn radius on side streets and squaring up the junction would help.

    As for the bin argument I had I would prefer to share the cycle lane with a loading garbage truck for 5 min a day rather than dodge that bin 24hr a day.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. wingpig
    Member

    "I thought 'the plan' was to try to reduce traffic on Pilrig Street."

    I think that's some of the reasoning behind making the Leith Walk end of Iona St exit-only.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. PS
    Member

    The floating bus stop to the north of the junction: I like it, but I don't think it is on the Council's plans?

    I think I'd decided that one of the reasons the designs were able to throw cyclist back into the middle of the road was that they had binned the idea of a floating bus stop there, because if they'd kept it in they would have needed to keep segregation across the junction.

    However, I suppose they may conceivably have tried to solve the junction first and the solution they landed on did not work with a floater?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    @chdot - yes it's very good that space won't be taken from pedestrians. I don't think allowing bikes going down hill on Leith walk to turn into Pilrig St even when the pedestrians have a green man would work.

    @PS - You're right that the floating bus stop isn't currently in the plans, but my impression is that this is because there wouldn't be any point, if you've had to contend with their disaster of a plan for the Pilrig St junction then getting past another bus stop will be easy...

    I got different answers from different people at the consultation, one guy was even talking about segregated cycle infrastructure being impossible because they needed somewhere to put the bins, but the impression I got from the most senior guy there is that the fundamental problem that they had failed to sort out was getting the segregation across Pilrig Street. I think if we can sort this then getting another bus stop island will be possible, the space isn't any tighter than in other places where they've managed a bus stop island.

    I'm optimistic / naive enough to think that with enough lobbying of councilors and cajoling of council officers this can be turned into a really superb scheme.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. ih
    Member

    @utrechtcyclist

    This solution is brilliant, simple and elegant. Every proposal should have to pass this back of an envelope test. If it can't be depicted in principle succinctly on TBoaE (A5 should do), it is too complicated and won't work and certainly won't be used. We need this at Pilrig Street and McDonald Road, not the rubbish that's on offer.

    @u, one question. What about cycling traffic coming from Pilrig Street? I presume this would best be managed on your principles, by having the cycle path continue across Leith Walk; during phase 1 of the lights, cyclists turning right (south) would proceed across the Walk as far as the south pedestrian crossing across the Walk; during phase 2, these waiting cyclists can proceed south; Pilrig cyclists turning left (north) proceed during this phase; during phase 3 (the Leith Walk traffic phase) cyclists turning left both from Leith Walk and from Pilrig Street could also continue?

    A future question. If the tram came that far, how would you manage that? Have them go during phase 3? What about cars wanting to turn right into Pilrig?

    I know now that I will not use the cycle infra on offer, but I would use this.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. mgj
    Member

    Sorry, but what is wrong with the junction as it is currently? It is one the few where the advanced stop line is easy to get to and worthwhile, rather than pushing cyclists heading straight on to the left of potentially turning traffic. The main problem currently is the road surface, and then the lack of joining up with the new section North of the church. Could also do with an advanced stop line on Pilrig Street for those turning right and heading up LW, especially since there are so many potholes to manoeuvre around.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    @ih thanks! We hadn't thought about right turning cyclists out of Pilrig, but they can fit in just as you suggest. Perhaps if the trams come down you'd have to suspend cars turning right into Pilrig Street whenever a tram is passing, but I think that's probably okay...

    @mjg - Aspa and I went to the edfoc nutrition event north of Pilrig st on Tuesday, but we were pushing our bikes for substantial parts of Leith walk including across this junction. And we cycled to work every day for two years while we lived in Holland. There's no problem with the current lane if you're comfortable cycling at 20mph plus as you look 180 degrees over your shoulder while crossing the left turning traffic lane. Many current cyclists, and the vast vast majority of ordinary people that we want to get cyclists don't have this fitness, coordination and confidence, and possibly never will.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. mgj
    Member

    @UtrechtCyclist, why were you pushing? Because Leith walk is a fairly steep hill? And yet you are suggesting traffic management that works in mostly flat continental towns, where many more people already cycle and there is mass infrastructure already. As we have seen from the Innocent to Meadows infrastructure, drivers don't understand continental infrastructure and it just creates parking further out from the pavement on the laughable bike corridor.

    Heading North down Leith Walk, cyclists are in an all day bus lane; the only requirement to go straight on is to hold position in the lane either if the lights are green or red (they are always red...)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. wingpig
    Member

    "Heading North down Leith Walk, cyclists are in an all day bus lane"

    Not for much longer. When does the experimental peak-only change come in?

    "...the only requirement to go straight on is to hold position in the lane..."

    That's one of the problems - holding position in the lane is one of these manoeuvres much more commonly executed by the speedy/strong/confident.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    @mjg, we were pushing (downhill) because we were scared to be on the road with the cars hurtling past us. Anyway, we could have a wider debate about segregation and who it serves but I have to get back to work :)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. i
    Member

    @UtrechtCyclist
    I converted your block of text into a visualisation, is this what you meant? You're welcome to use it in your blog.

    Unless we have a bus stop bypass, it will be very difficult to fit in segregated bike paths without eating into pavement space. The team pointed out a bypass would mean buses block the road when you have a wave of traffic from the junction so close. I could see it clogging up the junction. I suppose a solution would be to have it further down the road or before the Pilrig junction.

    @mjg Its not that steep?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. i
    Member

    A picture that fits this forum:

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    That's amazing @i, thanks very much! I'll put it on the blog tomorrow evening.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. fimm
    Member

    I love the fact that it really is done on the back of an envelope...
    ;-)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. mgj
    Member

    Never considered that anyone would be pushing downhill. Maybe I'm attuned but LW feels the safest part of my commute; even better than MMW.

    The current road surface makes it impossible to cycle in the gutter given the two huge ruts caused by HGVs/buses, so relatively easy to hold the lane downhill/actually impossible not to.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. fimm
    Member

    mgj you're definitely attuned. All of us who cycle in current traffic are IMHO.

    If UtrechtCyclist wants to cycle on Scottish roads now he has two choices; become attuned, or walk.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. i
    Member

    @ mgj You say LW feels safer than MMW, I'm curious, why do you feel that? I'd say the opposite but of course your experience is just as valid! :)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. mgj
    Member

    @ i, because there are no pedestrians about to step out in front of me at random and without looking, which cannot be said of MMW, and because there is a full lane that cars dont access. The major issues there (for me) are not traffic volumes or speed, but the poor road surface, and the roundabout at London Road which would be better if drivers indicated more consistently. For the volume of traffic, even in rush hour, there is still very little hold up and a lot of roadspace, with few holdups to cause driver frustration. On the North side, its easy to keep up and not slow traffic given the slope. On the other side, no one is expecting cyclists to be travelling fast; manoeuvring around double parked traffic is as difficult as it gets.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. wingpig
    Member

    Then don't travel so fast?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. neddie
    Member

    Spokes'response:

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/LW-McD-Pilrig-response-FINAL.pdf

    from:

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/documents/members-campaigning/edinburgh/leith-walk/

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. PS
    Member

    All good stuff from Spokes there.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. crowriver
    Member

    An excellent response from Spokes! Very clear.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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