CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

"George Street traffic changes: Have your say"

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  1. Klaxon
    Member

    It's only one shot out of I'm sure many, but those cycle lanes while being on the 'correct' side of parking look very door zone.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    Obviously it all comes down to "detail"!

    "
    An ambitious vision for George Street, the centrepiece of the New Town, will see pedestrians and cyclists given much greater priority.

    Parts of the street are expected to be regularly closed off for events to ease pressure on St Andrew Square, which attracts hundreds of thousands of visitors during the summer and winter festivals. Just one lane of traffic will be allowed on either side of the thoroughfare.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/continental-makeover-planned-for-edinburgh-s-george-street-1-4023162

    First paragraph good, second one doesn't make it clear if there will be any bike bits that won't routinely be covered with temporary structures every Festival time.

    CCE had lots about the wholly inadequate 'last minute' bike lane by the pop-up gin palace/theatre.

    Lesley Hlnds was in the unfortunate position of 'promising without being able to deliver'.

    Lots for Spokes, Sustrans, Living Streets and concerned members of the public to co-operate on.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. Never mind the little bike lane in the door zone, but this is just the "shared space" idea that's failing everywhere if nothing is done to remove motor traffic.

    So George Street will still be open with one traffic lane in both directions plus parking. Why will it not be a solid line of cars as it is now at busy times? And why would drivers not double park or park on the wide pavements, as they do in Hanover Street, Grassmarket, Leith Walk etc and as they did during the trial last year?

    Part of the "shared space" vision is to remove all designated pedestrian crossings, which in practice means that many people find it difficult/impossible to cross at all if the traffic levels remains high.

    If this goes ahead, there are more problems than having the bike lane too close to the door zone.

    George Street should be pedestrianised completely, or if parking access is really needed, then individual sections should be closed off at one end and made into cul-de-sacs to remove through traffic and only have access to parking.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. .. I forgot to mention that artist's impressions of all such schemes always show far too few cars, and no cars that break any rules and go too fast, double park or park on pavements.

    Basically don't get excited by looking at the picture, or photoshop twice as many cars into it first.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. For more on the "shared space" vision and why it fails:

    And for a pedestrian view, the

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Plugin

    .

    The Sea of Change Film: Walking into Trouble.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. It is worth reading the Living Streets Edinburgh briefing on George St. where they say things like:

    • Parking should be removed from the majority if not all of George St.
    • At least two of the blocks on George Street should be fully pedestrianised.
    • Space for cycling infrastructure must be taken from parking and the carriageway and not from pedestrian space. (Booo for "potentially a 10mph speed limit for cyclists" - but to be fair its generally fairly positive about cycling too)
    • Shared space must protect vulnerable users and restrain vehicle speeds

    They also point out that "Edinburgh must not fail again" and "With the exception of the High Street, Edinburgh has not delivered an effective streetscape project that could be considered close to European standard. The Grassmarket project is at best a partial success and arguably poor by European standards."

    I'm still annoyed with LSE for the Roseburn nonsense but for George Street I think they picked the correct issues and argued them well, while the council proposal fails to take any of that into account.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. Klaxon
    Member

    The devil's in the detail, but if these impressions are anything to go by the project will have to be really careful to avoid being the next Exhibition Road. I know Mr Farrar is well aware of the shortcomings of it, as it was brought up during our chat at one of the consultations.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. @Klaxon When I spoke to somebody at the consultation, I got the impression traffic management wasn't in their brief at all and they were just asked to provide a multi-purpose design. It would be up to the council then to dedicate the space to traffic or events which in practice means normally a through road but closing parts of it for short times. To be honest, I couldn't figure out despite long conversations how this is supposed to work in practice.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. neddie
    Member

    A great blog on Exhibition Road, the bit that works (the end bit) and the bit that doesn't (most of it by the museums)

    https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/lessons-from-exhibition-road/

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. PS
    Member

    Am I missing something here? I can't see anything to suggest this is "shared space". There's clear demarcation of pavement, cycle lane, parking and road. If drivers want to park they will naturally park in the parking bay. If drivers do double park then they will simply block the path of buses and cars behind them.

    It will certainly be interesting to see what's proposed for temporary pedestrianisation, but at the very least there should be some utility points built into central points on the road to prevent the need for cables and hoses running across the pavement and cycle way.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. @PS The article explicitly calls it "'shared use' vision" and Lesley Hinds mentions "focusing on the shared use".

    I may be wrong but I thought they want low kerbs and no bollards or something to protect the "pavements" because that would be problematic when using it as events space. So what will stop drivers from parking all over the place as they do in Grassmarket?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Stuart Hay (@StreetWurrier)
    07/02/2016, 12:16 pm
    "Continental makeover planned 4 Edinburgh's George St" This is really positive especially if led by Businesses

    http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh/continental-makeover-planned-for-edinburgh-s-george-street-1-4023162

    "

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. Klaxon
    Member

    I personally believe that so long as there is no through-route on any given block that vehicle levels and speeds would be low enough for a nearly-kerbless design to work. Anyone left is going to be cruising for space to park or unload.

    If utilised, restricted parking zone bans waiting of any sort outside marked bays without the need for any other lines.

    The part that has buses would need them re-routed away or be given a proper kerb line with crossings. No place for double deckers in a pedestrian area.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    "No place for double deckers in a pedestrian area"

    Do you mean that literally or 'buses and other large vehicles'?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. @Klaxon "I personally believe that so long as there is no through-route on any given block that vehicle levels and speeds would be low enough for a nearly-kerbless design to work."

    I agree completely. But the article gave me the impression that through lanes in both directions would be kept, so I thought it was actually a step backwards from the trial design (with the effective one-way parts which restricted any through routes).

    Guess I should have waited for the full plans before commenting...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. Klaxon
    Member

    Stephan, AFAIA there's no public plans yet, I was just speculating on how it could work based on the single illustration.

    Chdot; Can't say I'm a fan of anything bigger than a 3.5T van without kerbs and properly delimited lanes. The swept path on corners quickly gets nasty.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    Yes, think there needs to a clear understanding (by CEC) of no bus routes (not just LB) or HGVs.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. sallyhinch
    Member

    An attempt to disentangle the many nuances of shared space here:

    http://www.therantyhighwayman.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/the-myth-of-shared-space.html

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    Ah the wisdom of EN commenters -

    "

    kaka30
    They will rue the day if they mess with George Street. Its got character and has had for hundreds of years, leave it alone, dont touch a thing.

    "

    Maybe it's irony.

    How can you tell on the Internet??

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. wingpig
    Member

    Another comment being sad about the central decobbling, but the consultation revealed that they weren't original.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. PS
    Member

    EEN Commenters:
    "WE FEAR CHANGE."

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. chrisfl
    Member

    emai into info@:

    George Street and First New Town (GNT)

    Public Drop-In Event – January 15th & 16th 2018

    The Council are holding public drop-in events on the Monday 15 (1pm-6pm) and Tuesday 16 (3pm – 8pm) January 2018 at the City Arts Centre (5th Floor), 2 Market Street, Edinburgh, and you are more than welcome to join us.

    These events will allow the public to have their say on the GNT draft design objectives that were presented to you during December’s workshop.

    Posted 6 months ago #

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