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Etiquette help

(14 posts)
  • Started 9 years ago by Beano
  • Latest reply from Beano
  • This topic is resolved

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  1. Beano
    Member

    Debated whether to stick this in the rubbish cycling thread (by me) or not...as will become evident below.

    Came off the NEPN and joined West Coates road heading for Haymarket. I had just (maybe 20m past them) overtaken a slower cyclist and was merrily thrashing along when I noticed a white van pass me in the non-bus lane. He couldn't have been 20/30m past me when I noticed he'd stuck on the left indicator and was slowing down to take the turn. He could have made the move and i'd have just taken it as another WVM manoeuvre; he was far enough in front of me to make the turn without me changing my speed (I think).

    What he did though was pretty much stop in the non-bus lane with the indicator on to invite me to pass on his inside. I must admit I didn't fancy that invitation so I stopped too and I obviously forced the other cyclist to stop aswell. After a few seconds of a stand-off he turned and we all went on our way.

    so was that back cycling by me? should I have just twigged that he'd seen us (as he'd stopped in the lane) and gone for the under-pass? I felt a bit stupid to be honest.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  2. ih
    Member

    I've been in that situation too (not there) and I don't like it. I think you were right to stop because you can never be sure why the driver has stopped and what his intentions are. Equally his vehicle could be hiding a right-turning car coming the other way that will spread you over the junction. The fault was the driver's who couldn't judge that he could safely pass you and execute the manoeuvre.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  3. dougal
    Member

    The fault is primarily with the road designers for creating a system where some vehicles turn left from the not-leftmost-lane. The reason it's so awkward here is because this scenario would never really happen with multiple car lanes --- and if it did it would be clear who was driving badly.

    As it is I think you were correct. You can't tell why the van stopped. It's always more correct to be safe and predictable than "going for it". Stopping and waiting for clear lines of sight and no hazards is the safest thing to do.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  4. acsimpson
    Member

    Perhaps the driver was Danish. IIRC someone said this is what some Danish drivers overtake then cede priority before turning across the cycle lane.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  5. acsimpson
    Member

    Oops, double post!

    Posted 9 years ago #

  6. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Certainly something I've said before, have seen French drivers do this too. But in the UK I'd do exactly as the OP - just don't trust people! (which is a shame, and is casting aspersions on the driver you encountered, who, it appears, was superb).

    Posted 9 years ago #

  7. ih
    Member

    I'm afraid I don't agree the driver was superb. Overtaking and then waiting in lane didn't save any time for anyone, and wasted the time and energy of the two cyclists, and only led to confusion about his intentions. The best you can say is that he realised his mistake and didn't left hook. He should just have slowed down and nipped in behind the cyclists when they had cleared the junction. Simples. No confusion; no wasted time.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  8. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Except the OP said he thought there was (probably) time to turn in without the cyclist having to slow. But then a thought of 'better safe than sorry' kicked in - actually anticipating that the cyclist may speed up, may be going faster than he'd anticipated etc etc etc. Nope, I still think this was good driving I'm afraid.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  9. Roibeard
    Member

    Good driving, in terms of following Rule 183. Which is more than we should expect, since drivers can break the Highway Code (and associated laws) and still have an appropriate standard of driving.

    Yes, drivers here are indeed meant to do as the funny foreigners and give way to traffic using bus and cycle lanes.

    No, I wouldn't trust a UK driver to know this - I suspect very few of the UK population are aware of this rule! I only discovered it after experiencing said funny foreigners...

    However, the driving did not demonstrate good observation (or good judgement if they saw what was happening and misjudged it), as this could have been predicted and avoided. So not good advanced driving!

    Robert

    Posted 9 years ago #

  10. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I still think that's overly harsh. I think minor blips are forgiveable if they are a: realised, and b: rectified.

    Humans are fallible. Now there is 'gross' fallibility that should be stamped out, but minor instances that actually posed no threat to anyone I've no issue with.

    Last night, wheeling my bike from its parking spot, I wasn't paying attention and almost wheeled it into a pedestrian. I realised she was there. I stopped. She skipped round the slightly protruding front wheel (and being British we both apologised to each other).

    Being in charge of a car requires more scrutiny of fallibility, simply because of the greater potential harm. But here the driver was in a separate lane, did not move across, had seen the cyclists, had stopped, had been very aware of who was around his vehicle, and made a conscious decision not to take a risk. His only failing was that he knew (presumably) he wanted to turn left ahead, and went past the cyclist anyway. That's it, absolutely nothing more. He didn't left hook, he didn't threaten in any way. He moved past a cyclist in a different lane and then thought 'actually, I'm not going to have time to make that turn safely'.

    Yes 'advanced' driving might have stopped him going past, but there will always remain an amount of fallibility. (for what it's worth I still think the advanced driving test should just be the driving test - an American friend of mine yesterday lunchtime was complaining about how easy it was to get a licence here).

    Always interesting how many different takes there will be on the same scenario (even see it happening when there is video evidence of stuff). Does that come from personal experience? Or from each individual's vision of how the roads should be? Certainly we know the views of many drivers are coloured because they don't cycle and don't understand the specifics of cycling, but that doesn't obviously apply here as I know Roibeard drives (but you've got the advanced driving licence haven't you? Or am I thinking of a different conversation?).

    Anyway, on the OP I'd still say I'd have done the same, and that in so doing Beano did nothing wrong...

    Posted 9 years ago #

  11. cb
    Member

    It can be quite a tricky situation when driving. There is an obvious point at which you should go behind the cyclist and an obvious point at which you should go around in front, and there is not exactly a straight-forward cut off between the two.

    You have to judge the relative speed of you and the cyclist as well as potentially contend with irate drivers in the lane behind you.

    In this situation it was a van so the driver would be relying entirely on the wing mirror to see the cyclist - perhaps a good reason for taking a cautious approach and keeping behind the cyclist in the first place.

    Having breaks in the bus lane in advance of side roads gives drivers more options, but you tend not to get these for minor roads. I have been known to move into the bus lane early behind a cyclist to remove conflict from irate drivers behind me.

    I should really always take the view: to-hell-with-the-driver-behind. My driving instructor always made this point - don't be concerned with slowing up the traffic behind you. Unfortunately the reality is that most drivers probably do feel pressure from behind.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  12. Roibeard
    Member

    @WC - my wife's the advanced driver, not me... I've never dared take the test, having had to have several attempts at the ordinary ("easy") test, and being fully aware that my driving constantly needs improving!

    Cycling (and parking bikes) is so much easier than being responsible for all the energy, momentum, and inertia bundled up in a motorised vehicle!

    Robert

    Posted 9 years ago #

  13. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I've been in that situation too a couple of times, oddly all of them on West Coates, at turn after Donaldsons into Magdala Crescent. A car passes, gets just past (on the slight uphill) and then begins to slow and put on the indicator without actually moving over. Being it's at the end of an uphill segment, it's not really possible to suddenly find a reserve of speed and shoot up on the inside. I'm also not willing to try undertaking a car turning left across me. It's not possible to overtake either as they're still in the inside lane. It seems to naturally result in a Mexican standoff where both parties grid to a halt. Seems to take quite a bit of waving and gesticulating and raised voices to get them to make their move.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  14. neddie
    Member

    It can be quite a tricky situation when driving.

    Overtaking anything, even another motorist, is a tricky situation when driving. There is plenty of potential:
    - to misjudge the speed of oncoming vehicles;
    - to fail to see hazards such as driveways/minor side roads;
    - for the person being overtaken to react unexpectedly, including speeding up!

    And at the same time as anticipating all of that, you also have to check your mirrors to make sure no one is trying to overtake you.

    The difference here, is that in general, following motorists do not get irate if you don't overtake another motorist. The onus is on them to overtake the pair of you (if desired).

    My own personal rules are "do not overtake, unless you are absolutely certain" and "do not overtake unless you are sure there is not traffic ahead of you that you are equally likely to be stuck behind"

    That more or less rules out overtaking in all situations with today's traffic volumes.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  15. Beano
    Member

    some interesting points...I wish I had it on GoPro or something but alas one of those may arrive if santa thinks I've been good this year.

    Trying to think back there was a steady stream of traffic in the non-bus lane so maybe he'd gone past thinking he'd make it then encountered the traffic slowing but by that point he'd already passed the cyclists...maybe i'm being nice. I'm sure I heard somewhere that the majority of drivers don't think/judge/look beyond 10m or something like that.

    I occasionally drive too and I think I have become a better or more observant driver since taking up cycling again. I know that seems weird but I think I hadn't fully appreciated the vulnerability of cyclists till then.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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