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We Walk, We Cycle, We Vote

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  1. sallyhinch
    Member

    AFAIK no politicians got taken for a ride, although I think Caroline Barr got a lift back with Kim in the EdFoC cargo bike and I got to sit in the torpedo. Maybe next time we can have one in daylight hours and combine a Bike Curious event with a hustings element

    The other chap at Kim's table was Keith Irving, head of Cycling Scotland - we should probably have labelled him, but he came in late (from the 'Men's Cycle Forum' event next door, AKA the Cycling Scotland Conference reception). We did observe that, given the small numbers of men in the room, their voices were disproportionately heard (I should say this wasn't the case for all the men). Short of banning men altogether or telling them to pipe down, I'm not sure what we can do about that, other than just talking over them if they dominate the conversation without saying anything of material interest...

    Sadly we had no Lib Dem (there were two Labour councillors, the one who wasn't Lesley Hinds was Maureen Child), despite frantic last-minute efforts. We will collate the questions we had on the cards and pass them on to the LibDems for some answers.

    We avoided introductions because they can get quite prolonged if one person decides to give their life story and we didn't really have facilitators at each table to move things along. However, thinking it through, once we'd decided to move the politicians and not the participants, we could have done brief introductions at the individual tables. I was a bit panicky about keeping to time, because we were restricted by last trains and the late start (and a larger turnout than we had expected). An extra half hour would have made a huge difference

    Posted 8 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    "and a larger turnout than we had expected"

    That's very good news.

    And - once again - congratulations to the people who make this and other events happen.

    I am very sure they make a difference (in many positive ways).

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. unhurt
    Member

    (I failed to introduce myself to people I thought/knew were CCErs because I was feeling a bit grim and had dosed myself with drugs in order to make it at all! (Me: turquoise long-sleeve and black skirt with sparkles.))

    Posted 8 years ago #
  4. Arellcat
    Moderator

    'behavioural change' is clearly needed, and there are all sorts of theories about how to make it happen - inc "nudges".

    There are also examples of behavioural change not really achieving things in isolation, but having the full force of legislation behind it. The smoking ban, and the campaigning behind it, has resulted in nicely smoke free establishments, but patrons now have to walk through the smoke just to enter or leave those establishments. Take Waverley station: halfway down the north ramp, where the roof begins, is now the point where 'inside' begins.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "There are also examples of behavioural change not really achieving things in isolation, but having the full force of legislation behind it."

    Quite.

    But are there examples of the things SG 'wants' to happen based (almost) entirely on advertising?

    IF SG wants things to happen here - without new legislation - I think some serious enforcement of a wide range of 'motoring' issues is needed - speed, parking, ASLs, close passes etc. etc.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    Ps that's not a "war on motorists" it's upholding laws that are supposed to be for the benefit of 'everyone'.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  7. SRD
    Moderator

    the smoking ban was raised at my table too. the difference is that public smoking affected all of us, while dangerous infrastructure & behaviour are perceived as a problem for a lunatic fringe that chooses to cycle.

    until that changes, behavioural change will be useless.

    which is why we need better infra so that more people cycle AND to link our campaigning to pedestrian campaigning, which is either seen as benefitting the majority or a 'helpless' minority in need of protection.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    "AND to link our campaigning to pedestrian campaigning"

    Yes.

    I believe this site has helped to move that along, but there are still 'cycle campaigners' who find it hard to see common cause with 'pedestrian campaigners' (and vice versa!)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  9. 559
    Member

    @chdot
    Totally agree that existing traffic laws are fully enforced, that in itself would be a major step forward.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  10. neddie
    Member

    Copying this post over to its rightful thread:

    I heard on Twitter that Lesley Hinds was fed up of people talking about "the Netherlands" last night [at the WCV meeting]. Her response was "...but this is *Edinburgh*"

    About sums it up really.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  11. Morningsider
    Member

    The smoking ban is a red herring. Making something illegal and then enforcing that ban, when the culture has been heading that way for some time, is relatively easy. Anti-smoking adverts were just a small part of the process, I think government interventions before the ban, e.g. increasing tobacco taxes and tobacco advertising bans, were far more important than the adverts.

    My feeling is adverts and other measures like individual travel planning have a small, but useful, role to play right at the end of the infrastructure building and policy change process. Simply to let people know that they can cycle on safe, direct routes.

    My concern is that "behaviour change", "transport policy" and "infrastructure" are seen as different things. Great cycle infrastructure, transport policy that makes cycling and walking more attractive than driving are essential to behaviour change.

    Let's face it, the Dutch government's response to the "Stop the child murder" campaign in the 1970's wasn't a series of adverts saying "Please stop murdering our children" but a complete rethink of transport policy and the reshaping of their urban environment.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  12. fimm
    Member

    Keith Irving, head of Cycling Scotland
    Ah, right. OK.
    I wondered if he was a politician/official type person.

    We did observe that, given the small numbers of men in the room, their voices were disproportionately heard (I should say this wasn't the case for all the men). Short of banning men altogether or telling them to pipe down, I'm not sure what we can do about that...
    Not an easy one. Someone was definitely encouraging Kim to talk less! Keith Irving did limit himself to one question per politician. I think it was maybe just his manner of being someone official, or something. As I was saying to someone afterwards, I work in a very male-dominated environment and am capable of dealing with that - maybe at the event I just wasn't quite sure if I was "supposed" to be sharing my experience or asking awkward questions, or what... so I didn't say much.

    Maureen Child was therefore the person who suggested a riot (in the context of Kim talking about the "Stop die Kindermord" campaign), and also the person who was talking about going to hustings.

    Unhurt, I was wearing a pale green jacket. There's a photo of me in the twitter stream.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  13. sallyhinch
    Member

    Here's the storify of the event - culled from some frantic tweeting from myself, with help from Lizzie Reather, Suzanne Forup and a couple of others. inevitably no more than a few glimpses of the conversations being had, and not always 100% accurate but it gives a flavour of the night, I hope https://storify.com/walkcyclevote/we-walk-we-cycle-we-vote-at-the-women-s-cycle-foru

    Posted 8 years ago #
  14. Arellcat
    Moderator

    The questions (at my table at least):

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. HankChief
    Member

    I thought it was good if a little jumbled...

    I only signed up to it that day and completely forgot it was speed dating so that came as a bit of a surprise...

    On arrival at the council building I was directed upstairs and do headed towards the noise and what I now understand to be the CS reception where I helped myself to a glass of wine before realising there were a lot a suited men and nowhere to sit down...

    I got to the right room a little late and hid myself away in a corner, still nursing my CS wine. We had an eclectic mix and generally were okay at letting everyone speak although at times I felt we were chatting amongst ourselves as much as quizing the politicians, who on the whole knew their stuff.

    What I thought was interesting was the way we, as questioners (myself included), changed our approach & tone to the politicians from different parties, probably highlighting our prejudices.

    I tried to keep asking the question of what should 'we' do to persuade those decision makers not in the room to invest more.

    Some interesting responses.

    AJ: emphasise the broad spectrum of cyclists (This was countered by the lacking infra meaning that most are), keep pestering politicians and make POP16 bigger than ever.

    JMcA: We're already doing more than ever... Police need to enforce traffic laws so we should pester them.

    MC: Get them to see for themselves.

    Someone ( can't remember who ) talked about exemplar project/town so that we can see that it can be done with our climate/terrain/attitudes and every politician can see for themself rather than going to NL and then saying it will never work back home.

    I'd never really thought of it in those terms, but to me it needs to be the whole town rather than just one route or it will still mainly be MAMILS.

    Which brings me to my bit of local campaigning... We live within 1/2 miles of QuietRoute9 but we can't access it directly because of 6 steps at the back entrance to Craigmount HS. The alternative adds 600m via roads. I used it as an example of how infra is offputting to non- MAMILS and how it shouldn't be so difficult to get it changed (2years and counting...)

    Lesley talked about how her neighbourhood partnership has a budget for small local cycling and walking projects. Which sounds interesting - she's going to check whether it is the same in all NPs. My NP passed responsibilty for replacing 'my' steps off to the central cycling team...

    All in all a good night if only to energise me that what we are doing is working and keep it up.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    "JMcA: We're already doing more than ever... Police need to enforce traffic laws so we should pester them."

    Do you mean she said 'my Gov is doing more' and 'you should pester Police Scotland'

    ?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  17. HankChief
    Member

    That was my take on it...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    Well she has a cheek.

    The first is 'party line' and the second is unacceptable buck passing.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

  20. HankChief
    Member

    I can't recall the full conversation - (maybe dictaphobes next time) - I think she was on the back foot when her first question was on why only 2% on AT and the standard patter of we're spending up x% despite central funding down y% didn't go down well (we could have done with DdF on our table).

    She was much better talking about her epithany towards cycling having seen it in NL.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    "

    South of Scotland MSPs Dr Aileen McLeod and Joan McAlpine have written to Chief Constable of Police Scotland Sir Stephen House and Chairman of the Scottish Police Authority Vic Emery to express serious concerns over the proposed closure of the Police control room in Dumfries.

    "

    https://m.facebook.com/DGWGO/posts/617048811701250

    Maybe she'll do the same about enforcement issues(?)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  22. daisydaisy
    Member

    A whole lot of buck passing from Joan McAlpine. The Netherlands is great, but it would take a long time to get there. The local authorities have most of the power, not scot gov. The scottish budget's been cut. The police won't enforce the law and we can't do anything about it.
    Basically, it'd be lovely to be like NL, but, shrug, we can't really do anything about it.
    I did go and speak to her at the end and say a default 20 mph speed limit is something they could do. She did agree, but personally, and not with much hope of the scot gov actually doing it.
    The most interesting thing she said was that the 1988 traffic act places a duty on local gov to follow road safety guidelines, and these have since been updated to be more strongly in favour of 20mph. Any legal experts?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  23. Morningsider
    Member

    daisydaisy - I would never claim to be a legal expert. However, the road safety provisions of the Road Traffic Act 1998 (section 38 to 40) do not place a duty on local authorities to follow national guidance. They simply allow the DfT and Transport Scotland to promote road safety by disseminating information or advice on the use of roads.

    The recent Scottish guidance on 20mph limits (1) is very clear on its status, stating:

    "The information in this Good Practice Guide is intended as guidance only. It is not meant to modify or override any of the provisions contained in the relevant road traffic legislation."

    Scottish local authorities are under no pressure (legal or otherwise) to implement 20mph speed limits. Derek Mackay MSP is on the record (2) as stating "Now I am not passing the buck here. I am saying I’ll be supportive of 20mph zones but it’s for local authorities, it’s their responsibility to lead, to consult and to act, and I’ll be as supportive as possible."

    (1)http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/system/files/documents/guides/20%20mph%20Good%20Practice%20Guide%20-%2019%20December%202014%20-%20Version%20to%20be%20published.pdf
    (2) https://www.holyrood.com/articles/inside-politics/derek-mackay-i%E2%80%99ll-be-supportive-20mph-zones-it%E2%80%99s-local-authorities-act

    Posted 8 years ago #
  24. daisydaisy
    Member

    Thanks Morningsider. So much useful knowledge on this forum.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "

    In a survey of 31,000 people across Scotland conducted by the police to feed into their annual plan, 28 per cent of the public said they wanted the force's top priority to be tackling drug crime, ahead of road safety, violence and anti-social behaviour.

    "

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14032530.Top_drug_expert_says__the_war_on_drugs_is_just_a_war_on_the_poor/

    Perhaps that is because 'road safety' is seen as 'a restriction on drivers' - or maybe 'the public' sees drug users as worse than cyclists!

    Posted 8 years ago #
  26. wingpig
    Member

    "...and other types of anti-social behaviour..."

    Posted 8 years ago #
  27. gembo
    Member

    I checked the polis report. 2015/16 where they cite a survey from 2014. Violent crime is top at 45per cent. I am not sure the journalist checked facts presented by drugs researcher ? Or maybe some other survey? As sample bigger too. Anyway speeding drivers at 29 per cent in the survey the polis quote in their report.

    Great quot from unnamed polis in the herald story. West end Glasgow posh bits Edinburgh wee line of Coke. Areas of deprivation bikes being nicked from yer close by junkies.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    "I am not sure the journalist checked facts presented by drugs researcher ?"

    Sounds about right!...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    "

    @CyclingEdin: @JoanMcAlpine will you write to @policescotland + @ScotPolAuth about enforcement to help #ActiveTravel?

    https://t.co/yjCU3Sfu0L

    @hmics

    "

    "

    @JoanMcAlpine: @CyclingEdin @policescotland @ScotPolAuth @hmics yes I will feed back the views expressed last week

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  30. fimm
    Member

    What I thought was interesting was the way we, as questioners (myself included), changed our approach & tone to the politicians from different parties, probably highlighting our prejudices.
    I thought this too (hence my comment about the Conservative overcoming my prejudices).

    Posted 8 years ago #

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