CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Shared space proposed at busy bus station entrance

(65 posts)

123

  1. neddie
    Member

    Shared 'surface' treatment to be introduced at Elder St (bus station entrance) - 15/04868/AMC

    From the architects own statement:

    Improvements to the York Place/Elder Street junction

    The improvements to the proposals are consistent with the
    general aim of the masterplan which is to improve the
    pedestrian’s experience of the public realm.

    The aim has been to maximise the urban space made available to the pedestrian, and to introduce shared surface treatment with pedestrian priority. This is balanced with the need to maintain road safety through clearly delineated materials, street furniture and other edge markers, at the same time as accommodating the necessary vehicular usage for cars, buses, service vehicles and service vehicles, all of which use the junction.

    and...

    The intention is to create a better overall network of pedestrian routes within the public realm whilst maintaining safety and accommodating the high vehicular movements.

    (my bold)

    Hmmm...

    I'm sure pedestrians/cyclists are really going to enjoy waiting for hours at a subservient two-stage toucan crossing. Or maybe they'd prefer to mix it up with speeding coaches and cars accessing the multi-storey in the shared area?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  2. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Why do buses need a single lane entrance from the station on Elder Street to York Place but a 2 lane exit? Surely equal numbers of buses must enter and leave the bus station for it to function...

    Also, just how many service lorries are entering that they it requires a lane to access adjoining entrances...

    Seems like a vehicularists' creating-unneccessary-capacity fantasy land.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  3. DaveC
    Member

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    Looks like its been pulled already?

    In the vicinity, up the paved road outside St James entrance, the crossing was removed last year. With so much foot fall, I don't see why they (cooncil??) removed the zebra crossing?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  4. Fountainbridge
    Member

    Edinburgh planning website has been having issues all afternoon. Loads of "document unavailable" messages.

    I've been in an out of that planning app for the past few hours and docs keep coming and going

    Some screen shots of the PDF's

    screen1 by Paul Fountain, on Flickr

    screen2 by Paul Fountain, on Flickr

    Posted 9 years ago #

  5. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    I'm really confused as to why there's so much capacity, is this the access point for the car park too?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  6. Fountainbridge
    Member

    Think it's one of 2 entrances to the 1,800 capacity public car park

    Posted 9 years ago #

  7. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    This looks awful. Is the current pedestrian crossing of the junction two stage, or is that a new development to cope with the extra traffic?

    I couldn't get the link above to open directly (and never seem to be able to with the council planning website) but googling the number brings up the planning portal.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  8. DaveC
    Member

    As the busses leave at peak times there is usually a backlog of busses into the bus yard which prevents busses from entering. Presently 3 busses is all it needs to block the exit/entrance. There are parking spaces both sides which considering the local (very local) parking, is usually just used as pree waiting space. But making 2 lanes each side they allow mor throughput to the bus station. Also blocked entrance means busses usually stack up back onto York Place, as they queue to get onto Edler Street

    Posted 9 years ago #

  9. Fountainbridge
    Member

    It's not possible to tell from the images but west bound traffic on York Place will now use the same lane as the trams.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  10. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @DaveC some properly responsive traffic signalling should be installed here, to prioritise buses entering and exiting the bus station over the general flow of traffic along York Place. They don't need all that road space (which after all is being built simply as a "holding pen"), they just need priority.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  11. Fountainbridge
    Member

    Have you noticed the new 2 way cycle route on the westbound pavement on York Place? Just checked previous plans and they do not show a cycle path.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  12. PS
    Member

    Nice to see the segregated bike lane on York Place there, but the slalom on the island in the middle on Elder Street - is that for bikes or peds or, God help us, both? Seems to be shooting the infra in the foot right from the get-go to stick an obstacle in the way of an arterial route like that.

    I'd like to declare an interest here. I hate City Link coaches or, more specifically, the way they are driven (which is so consistent, it must be how the drivers are trained). They floor it along York Place and along any other city centre street they happen to be on. This evening one of their drivers judged my walking speed to perfection as I crossed the zebra crossing at the top of Frederick Street/George Street - the coach must have passed onto the crossing at a reasonable lick approx 0.5 seconds after I exited it. As a result, I'd back anything that inconvenienced them.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  13. HankChief
    Member

    The entrance to the bus station is one of the most difficult junction to get right on the Roseburn - Leith Walk route given the competing priorities and tight space.

    I understand they have looked at options without a 2 stage toucan but couldn't get them to work without causing problems for the buses.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  14. Fountainbridge
    Member

    Any reason why the cycle lane couldn't be placed on the north side of York Place? There's no breaks in that side of the road from Hanover Street to Broughton Street.

    Unfortunately nothing seems to have been done about this situation. Only way buses can fit round the bend.

    york-place-bus-sweep-pavement by Paul Fountain, on Flickr

    Posted 9 years ago #

  15. PS
    Member

    I see from a close up in @fountainbridge's tweet that the cycle lane appears to be stealing a sizeable chunk of pavement here.

    Now, the height differential of the pavement from the road on York Place must surely mean a significant amount of re-engineering (and, who knows, grade separation?), but it doesn't look great at a first glance. Having said that, there is a good metre+-wide section of tarmac on the pavement that no-one walks on anyway, so at least that will be called into action.

    The toucan is mince though - any more than 3 cyclists wanting to get across the junction at once will block it. How the hell will 10% commuting by cycle work here?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  16. Fountainbridge
    Member

    The plans still show the bit of path you mention between the cycle lane and the road. I'd estimate the 2 platforms are about 15cm high each above the other.

    The pavement is 3.7m wide between the railings and the initial step. My reading of the plans is 2 lanes of cycle route and a pavement will be carved out of the existing "high" pavement.

    Capture by Paul Fountain, on Flickr

    151027161446IMG_3679 by Paul Fountain, on Flickr

    Posted 9 years ago #

  17. ih
    Member

    @fountainbridge if I understand right, it's 3.7m between the railings and the carriageway, and a 2-way cycle lane and footway will have to be carved out of that? It's simply not enough, and that's before the abysmal toucan.

    It really needs a 1-way cycle lane on each side of Queen St from N St Andrew St to Picardy Pl, and that would make connectivity with both Leith Wk and George St much more achievable.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  18. Klaxon
    Member

    If constructed as drawn I'll just be cycling around the toucan island and giving way as suits, with all the personal hazard it brings.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  19. neddie
    Member

    Completely galling to me that the segregated cycleway is shown taking space away from pedestrians, leaving them with a minuscule amount of pavement.

    This scheme, purporting to be enhancements for pedestrians, takes absolutely no road space away from motorised vehicles at all. Indeed it increases it by allowing cars into the tram lane and making 2 lanes at the westbound left turn into Elder St. from York Pl.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  20. wingpig
    Member

    "...the slalom on the island in the middle on Elder Street - is that for bikes or peds or, God help us, both?"

    "I understand they have looked at options without a 2 stage toucan but couldn't get them to work without causing problems for the buses."

    When I go that way in the morning the second-biggest problem (after the whole wait-three-minutes-for-half-a-green-man-then-find-it-blocked-by-a-coach thing for pedestrians) is that buses and coaches attempt to emerge to turn west when there is not a space to turn west into, resulting in a bus or coach blocking westbound traffic when it gets a green and blocking the pedestrian crossing and bunging things up back to the roundabout. It needs some induction loops and some sort of electronic brain behind the light controls - if there's a bus coming, westbound traffic gets stopped in advance so that there's space for the bus to get out. Keep other buses back behind the toucan crossing so that peds/cycles can cross even when the emerging bus corks the junction. Then try giving pedestrians and cyclists twenty seconds and a single-stage crossing without right-angled blockage-enhancers. Remember that the two-stage island will also have guardrail around it, set a good fify centimetres away from the edge of the kerb to stop it scraping things or being scraped, further hampering its ability to allow two-way pedestrians and cyclists through it.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  21. crowriver
    Member

    Aye a segregated cycle lane on the north side of York Place would make much more sense.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    OK, help me out here.

    Is this because St James developers think it's a 'good idea' or is it a CEC design/requirement?

    How does it relate to Leith Walk to Roseburn 'super highway' plan??

    Posted 9 years ago #

  23. wingpig
    Member

    Roseburn-Leith consulation map shows 2-way segregated track along the south side of Queen St/York Place from North St David St.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  24. chdot
    Admin

    Ta.

    So it's all about Planning seeing the 'bigger picture'...

    Posted 9 years ago #

  25. Klaxon
    Member

    If the tram line is being deemed fair play for reallocating as general road space I'd far rather the cycle road on the north side than the south

    Posted 9 years ago #

  26. wingpig
    Member

    Seeing as the Haymarket end of Roseburn-Leith goes several streets out of its way to avoid an official cycling facility having anything to do with a tram track it's weird that it doesn't just go to the other side of the street to avoid them at North St Andrew St.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  27. crowriver
    Member

    Perhaps this all to do with how these 'public realm improvements' are being funded? Developer contributions? Hence presumably north side not included, nut south side is because of revised entrance as part of St James rehash?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  28. PS
    Member

    I'd assumed they put the cyclelane along the south side of York Pl so it would then run seamlessly into St Andrew Sq and then on to the George St lanes without having to cause another obstruction to "traffic flow" on York Place (after trams, peds, buses).

    Posted 9 years ago #

  29. neddie
    Member

    The segregated cycle lane needs to be unidirectional and on both sides of York Pl (running in the same direction as traffic for each side).

    Otherwise, for a two-way lane on one side, how do cyclists enter or leave the lane if they are travelling against the direction of traffic...?

    Answer:

    a) They don't - they remain imprisoned.
    b) They wait several minutes at a subservient ped-X.
    c) They take their chances crossing the traffic at random

    Posted 9 years ago #

  30. PS
    Member

    I think that's a good shout, edd1e. Given the tramlines, I suspect it would have to come from either the buslane (which is a car park at non-peak hours) or the recently widened pavement on the northside (or combination of the two), but that feels more equitable than taking more than half of the pavement on the southside.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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