I share your schadenfreude but long queues and crowded trains will only confirm to them that they prefer driving. If this had happened in summer and the bridge left open to cyclists I wonder if there would have been an upsurge in cycling.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
Avoid FRB tomorrow
(404 posts)-
Posted 9 years ago #
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and there's no way that people will understand that their past 'choice' to drive is what has led to under provision of alternative infrastructure/services.
Posted 9 years ago # -
it's the (mostly lone) occupants of these cars that I struggle to find sympathy with.
I agree, The number of people who drive into the Gyle or town when they could just as easily to a park and ride or get the train gets on my nerves. But the peak time trains are already virtually cattle transport, many of the buses run full from the Herriot Watt P&R.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Bikes/peds over bridge, safe bike park at southern end, buses picking up commuters there.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Re happening in summer - the picture that Spokes is tweeting is rather optimistic about weather conditions on the FRB...
Posted 9 years ago # -
I wonder if there'll be a spike (drop) in pollution levels at places like St John's Rd and Queensferry Rd.
Would be interesting to see the difference.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Interesting thought Eddie, and probably more than likely. It's certainly got the possibility for some of being a "happy time", like when that there unpronouncable Icelandic volcano closed down the skies and suddenly they were more blue and less cloudy than they had been in the years since jet airliners ruled the skies.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Re tunnel vs bridge: my wife's brother, who is a civil engineer, says that given the depth of the river and rules about the maximum gradient in tunnels/on trunk roads, the tunnel would need to surface well inland* from the shore, making the tunnel much longer than the bridge.
* I don't remember the exact distance, but it was at least a mile I think. Bear in mind the ground rises quite steeply on both sides.
Posted 9 years ago # -
The level of the approach roads on both sides of the Forth is about 50m above sea level. You'd need to add that to the 62m depth of the river to make a tunnel that was effectively at least 112m deeper than either of its ends.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I was surprised to encounter a long queue northbound on Maybury Road this afternoon. I had assumed a lot of this traffic would be heading to the bridge but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Have Scotrail put all their spare trains on the borders service? seems strange that they have to "borrow capacity" from elsewhere on the network, could they not rent capacity from England?
Can the armchair engineers explain why this bit of steel came under enough force to shear if it isn't needed?
Kaputnik, The damage looks the same as you frame (baring scale) perhaps you could send them some hints if you get it fixed.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I'm so 'armchair' that I'm practically horizontal, but if I understand the reports today, the structure that is cracked isn't hugely load bearing, but rather stabilises the road deck and stops it flapping around (technical term) but over 50 years of doing its job there can be enough movement and oscillations to cause fatigue cracks. The structure is 'needed'.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
Scottish Ambulance (@Scotambservice)
04/12/2015, 3:17 p.m.
Ambulances will continue to travel across the Forth Road Bridge when responding to emergencies."
Posted 9 years ago # -
This kind of upset to transport is of course annoying and inconvenient for commuters who have to re-organise child care, times of leaving the house etc. But there's also the element of adventure. When big snowfalls stop everything running, we love to boast of how we walked to work in 1 hour or even ski-ed. "We had to be dropped off at the north side of the FRB, walk across it and be picked up on the other side" would be good boasting material. Not quite the blitz, but getting there.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Have Scotrail put all their spare trains on the borders service? seems strange that they have to "borrow capacity" from elsewhere on the network, could they not rent capacity from England?
Scotrail has very little (read no) spare capacity. If itsn't in the works being repaired / serviced / refurbished then it's required out on the network.
The same story goes across the UK as a whole, indeed such is the shortage of multiple unit rolling stock, many operators have resorted to recommissioning old carriage stock (1960s Mk.II or 1970s Mk.III) and pulling them by locomotives. This already happens in Wales, Cumbria and some other places, including the Fife Circle where Scotrail leases two rakes of 6 Mk.II carriages and a pair of new Class 68 locomotives to pull them (lets not even get started about how unsuitable these spanking new state of the art 3,800hp, 100mph-rated locomotives are for the lightweight job of pulling a 6-car rake at pedestrian paces, twice a day).
These trains make two loops of the circle each day (one each in the morning and the evening peaks), and perversely spend the rest of the time trundling back and forwards between Edinburgh and their stabling and servicing point in Mossend, empty.
Carriage stock has its problems, namely having to turn the locomotive around to the other end of the train at the end of the line; not a problem on the Fife Circle, but an issue at Waverley - hence they send it around the "Sub" to Mossend, the locomotive is always at the front as the train effectively does a giant figure-of-8.
Two use these trains more intensely there's a couple of possible solutions. One is to "run around" the locomotive at Waverley, which Network Rail would hate, as it means shunting within the confines of the station, causing delays to other lines and platforms and an overly long "linger" time. Alternatively you could send it down to the less distant Millerhill to turn around. Another of which is to put a locomotive at each end of the train (which is an overly expensive solution as you need to lease 2 locomotives per train). The over is a driving trailer at the end of the carriages, but these are in short supply and they'd probably need refurbishment to bring them up to spec.
Of course, this may provide some more carriages, but it doesn't create extra routing paths across the Forth Bridge, and it doesn't solve the problem of access capacity to Waverley...
So, long story short, it's not easy to create any more capacity to Fife at short notice, even if the trains were available. Going to take a lot of creative route and rolling stock planning thinking.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"I was surprised to encounter a long queue northbound on Maybury Road this afternoon. I had assumed a lot of this traffic would be heading to the bridge but that doesn't seem to be the case."
Statistics show that half of all car journeys are less than 3 miles, a quarter are just 1 mile. Less than 30% are over 6 miles. So all those single occupant vehicles clogging up the roads? They are mostly local drivers.
The folk that I know who commute across the Forth live in Fife and work in Edinburgh. They all park at Inverkeithing or Rosyth and get the train in. Very few commuters travel the other way (possible exception places like Rosyth dockyards and Sky call centre).
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Scotrail has . . . snipped . . . planning thinking" Kap, how do you know all this? I actually find myself puzzling over trains and lines and think "If only Kaputnik was here. He'd know".
Posted 9 years ago # -
Quite a bit of twittering by spokes and others about allowing peds/cycles across...
Which even if doesn't come to anything for this time will atleast show that cycling is an important alternative to MOAR motors.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Rosie "Not quite the blitz, but getting there"
It puts me in mind of that time when the Russians blockaded Berlin and the Americans had to deploy a flight of Dakotas to keep the city supplied.
There was hardly any milk in Morrisons today, I wonder if that's because normally gets delivered from Fife ? On the plus side, I was surprised to get a delivery from Amazon today, so at least some supplies are getting through.Posted 9 years ago # -
@Pintail. I'm cowering in the house today but grimly noticing that the milk is running low. If my journey to Tesco Metro proves in vain...
Bring me milk and bring me bring me bread,
Bring me yoghurt hither,
Not on cycle, not on ped,
In the windy weather.Posted 9 years ago # -
My bid to get from Fife to Berlin today has been slightly convoluted but surprisingly uneventful, thus far.
Train from the Kingdom into Edinburgh was empty at 8am. Weird.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Kap, how do you know all this?
Mainly all pieced together from a lot of (too much) reading the right (or wrong, depending on your point of view!) forums and websites over too many years.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Kim tells me that the bike lane on bridge will stay closed? That can't be right though as you can't expect cyclists to detour via Kincardine and trains are full.*
Will ScotGov cross Forth strategy allow cyclists access as cycle/walkway decks are not at risk?
* Does not apply to DaveC!
Posted 9 years ago # -
Thanks Kaputnik, very interesting.
Laidback, I think the cyclepaths are cantilevered off the main roadway so any sudden changes to the stability of the main deck would also affect them. I'm sure with the load of traffic off the bridge the risk of further failure is also removed though.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Latest info from local Councillor..
Please find the latest information from fife council regarding the problems with the bridge
Details:
This is an update on the most current information we have concerning the closure of the Forth Road Bridge and the plans being put in place to minimise traffic congestion and the impact on surrounding areas. Daily briefings will be issued to all members for the next few days.
1. Action Taken:
2. The Incident Management Group continue to work over the weekend liaising with colleagues at the Scottish Government, Transport Scotland, Amey, bus companies, Scotrail and other partner organisations. Regular teleconference briefings are taking place and you will be kept updated on any developments.
3. The Scottish Government’s resilience committee chaired by the First Minister announced that an integrated travel plan for commuters and businesses would launch on Sunday to allow people time to plan their commute on Monday and throughout the closure period.
4. A dedicated bus and HGV priority will be put on A985 from Cairneyhill roundabout to Kincardine. No private vehicles will be allowed on this route. Local access details are being worked out by Transport Scotland, including a letter of comfort which they will issue to local communities.
5. Amey is preparing signing of the diversion routes with input from Fife Council
6. Given the revised travel arrangements proposed around the bridge discussions are currently on going to asses local impacts.
7. Central to the plan is the launch of an additional 1/2 hourly rail shuttle which will run 6am to 8pm between Haymarket and Inverkeithing/Dunfermline . When combined with existing services, this will increasing passenger capacity by around 40 per cent over the period of the bridge’s closure. This extra capacity will be introduced from Monday on a phased basis.
8. That will be supported by an additional 33 buses to run cross Forth via Kincardine .This will be a heavily discounted service with a possible charge around £3 return. Shuttle buses will be provided from the P&R sites at Halbeath and Ferrytoll to Inverkeithing for rail connections. A new summary timetable is being prepared and is expected to be issued later today.
9. Additional parking sites for all these services are being sought in Dunfermline and Inverkeithing. Fife Council staff/attendants will be present to assist users.
10. NOTE: The Council’s dedicated page on Fife Direct is http://www.fifedirect.org.uk/bridgeclosure - this has links to other partner organisations and helpful websites as well as the most up to date information on Fife Council services. The Contact Centre Out-of-Hours line will be available on 03451 550099. This line gives access to emergency council services.We will continue to take our lead from Transport Scotland and follow up with regular member briefings as the situation changes. Some details are still being finalised so please be sensitive with your interpretation and use of this information until definite plans are agreed.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Still doesn't mention bikes!
They really ought to WANT to facilitate bikes on the bridge - even just for a pair of 'rush' hours.
Emergency vehicles are allowed/able to cross.
Bus+hgv corridor doesn't sound fun for people who might cycle that route(?)
Presume it will affect alternative routes??
Posted 9 years ago # -
The silver lining...
Recent research shows that when people are forced to re-think their travel plans, a significant number discover that they prefer the new routes...
[researchers] compared the disrupted traveller with the undisrupted, they found that one in 20 of the disrupted travellers abandoned their old travel plans in favour of new ones...
Many London commuters failed to find their optimal route until they were forced to experiment," wrote these researchers...
"The long-lasting benefits of shorter commutes are worth more than the total travel disruptions during the strike," say the economists...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-35012316
All the more reason to keep the cycle and pedestrian lanes open. And to ensure that rail/bus passengers have the most pleasant experience possible.
Posted 9 years ago # -
So there is still no word on bikes?
It is cruel to tantalise with hope before slamming the door shut, as I suspect that they will stop it for H&S.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I personally don't see the issue with closing it to everything.
Close it, fix it, get it open. I'll put up with the train for a few weeks.
Posted 9 years ago # -
The cycle/pedestrian paths are hung outside the piers and I suspect may even be a structure largely independent from the road deck. If this is the case, then there should be no real reason not to have one side, as was the practice until the closure, open for all walking and cycling traffic, and the other side taken over for the works activity. If necessary cyclists could be convoyed over, to ensure no idiots let rip on the descent to the South shore. Bikes could be hired from the P&R at Ferry Toll or closer to the North landing, and deposited at the South Toll Plaza, which would operate as a coach/bus station, allowing services from Edinburgh and elsewhere to drop & pick up passengers.
Both the Nextbike (Glasgow and Stirling) and the Abellio (Haymarket and Stirling) bike hires systems can be set up in a day or less, as they don't need to have any docking stations
Cancellation of the new Stirling to Kings Cross service (1E03) which should start this week would mean an HST would be available to run in to Edinburgh around 06.00, turning it back at the sidings at Rosyth or just past Dunfermline QM - these sidings are almost directly alongside Halbeath Interchange, and since a 2 platform station with a footbridge was built in 1 week for Workington, a 1 platform station might be a bit quicker.
I notice that the Inverness-Kings Cross (1E13) service might also be diverted via Ladybank ans either switched with the Scotrail (1L10) service (sending that via Stirling) to use the same train path - or run limited stop in front of the Class 170.
There may be Virgin West Coast Voyagers, allocated to The Edinburgh-Euston services 9M50 (06.52 departure) and 9M52 (08.52) Both run as 5M50 and 5M52 ECS from Polmadie to Edinburgh and could I suspect be sent via Falkirk Grahamston and Winchburgh to Rosyth or Dunfermline QM to turn back and form a service in to Edinburgh. The same deal could be delivered for some evening arrivals from the South.
There is a mini-Voyager 221 122 which could carry 3 coach loads of passengers, and one option might be to run this as a jazz shuttle service between North Queensferry and Dalmeny fed by coaches from Ferry Toll P&R (driving to North Queensferry vice the bridge) and then picking up the passengers at Dalmeny in Coaches (using the adjacent former HP site as a coach holding point?) If a shuttle (Jazz) service is operated, then it might be the ideal way to carry bikes across for those who regularly cycle across the bridge.
The other request I'll put is that Stagecoach take a helpful line on accepting bikes on their coach services going round via Kincardine if this becomes the officially selected solution.
Posted 9 years ago #
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