CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
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Ed1, Unless there is a way to abolish party politics then the list seems far more democratic to me than first past the post. The vast majority of the electorate vote based on the party rather than the candidate.
Keiza, was a list candidate so was never elected as a candidate but instead put forward by her party to fill a seat.
@acsimpson
STV as used in local elections allows one to vote on both party and individual basis. I like that system.
The Holyrood system;
1) Creates two tiers of MSPs and
2) Allows parties to appoint place-persons that are peers in all but name.
Yeah list has its downsides but would much rather PR than FPTP. People talk about "open list" systems where you can choose the candidates on the list through various means but how many people actually would exercise that right with consideration?
I think there is an argument that closed lists are good for diversity too - studies have shown that people reviewing CVs can show [un]conscious bias against female/ethnic minority-sounding names. Clearly if you are really invested in the process it's important to really understand who you are voting for but for the many who just vote based on parties/names this may have an effect.
Multi member wards with STV (as used in Scottish council elections, and the Dáil in Ireland) deals with the problem Ed1 raises to some extent. Parties can put forward multiple candidates if they want to, but voters decide which ones get elected.
The Scottish council election system doesn't deal with by-elections as well as the list system, though. It's common for a party to end up with a disproportionate majority of the seats in a ward (2/3 or 3/4) following a by-election, despite receiving only ~33% of first preference votes in the by-election.
“The Scottish council election system doesn't deal with by-elections as well as the list system, though.”
Very true, but is a list system that allows people to resign and be replaced good?
closed lists are good for diversity
I'd rather diversity came about through voting rather than through candidate selection. That smacks of managed democracy to me.
Very true, but is a list system that allows people to resign and be replaced good?
In some respects yes (e.g., maintaining PR). In other respects no. I can't think of an obviously better alternative at the moment, anyway.
I'd rather diversity came about through voting rather than through candidate selection. That smacks of managed democracy to me.
I don't think many would disagree. Some, of course, see the benefits of diversity as being worth the cost of some managed democracy.
Yes - diversity is certainly not an argument for it on its own but certainly a nice bonus. Not much different from ensuring safe seats in Westminster have a good balance with all-woman shortlists etc.
STV is a goodish choice for councils where the 'personal' connection is really important. However, it has a few downsides - the aforementioned by-election one where it just reverts to FPTP and basically means the most popular party gets a free seat is a bit bizarre (ironically, this would be solved by allowing members to nominate a list of shadows just like the List system). I also dislike how parties have to be tactical about how many candidates they field and how well publicised the 'priority order' is - you can end up with situations where a party might get no seats because first/higher preference votes were split between them, or a party which might have got 2 members in a ward might only get 1 because they chose to field 3 (or a risk-averse 1). I remember hearing that the SNP were bitten by this in Edinburgh once.
To be honest though, these do seem like trifling matters of deckchair tidiness when compared to the gaping iceberg hole of FPTP.
“or a party which might have got 2 members in a ward might only get 1”
Related issue of first letter of surname resulting in long established councillors not getting re-elected because party colleague had a surname with a name nearer the beginning of the alphabet.
I live in a ward where only one of the three existing councillors was up for re-election. She didn’t get enough votes partly (probably) because there was another candidate (different partly) with the same surname higher up the ballot paper.
Kind of related to my bizarre-sounding argument that names on ballot papers actually does some harm (as well as being totally necessary in most cases!)
I think in some places they randomise the order, but then this means that explanatory literature can't show people exactly what they'll see in the booth.
For my elected member I don’t care too much about party. I want integrity principles, character ideally someone who is successful in their own right not just a standard issue Cameron Miliband type.
I have complained to elected member about various things. A lack of dentists in the borders, he got me an appointment. I also complained about my employment contract being illegally cancelled at the Scottish government after doing test interview getting contract and pension pack and being sent to 3 buildings to start where they said I declined the jobs when did not.
I found my liberal MSP useless when complained about the Scottish government, his people he said refused to write a letter. Lack of character to challenge the corruption of process. I want an elected member who will challenge corruption of process if they cant challenge their own people they no good.
I went to complain to my Labour MP Allister Darling when a car crashed in to mine and the police refused to give the details to my insurance company (they are not allowed under blocked plate scheme), had to take 1600 worth of damage on the chin in the end. Allister darlings secretary refused to let me see darling she went back and forth to speak but he lack the Gravitas to challenge the corruption or process.
Blocked plates may allow some people to drive without getting tickets from cameras or parking tickets or in practice any tickets, the police use it on some of their own private cars some government bodies use it some people have it on their own private car. Its meant to be for security...........
Laws and rules that the public are not aware of are not democratic. People don’t know what laws a party will pass, so cant choose who to vote for, they then cant evaluate a government as don’t know what laws they passed.
A good mps would challenge corruption of process
Ed1, I agree that the individual is more important. However as you say the process is corrupt. If the party whips are being strict then the individual can find themselves having to choose between keeping their job or maintaining their integrity.
I can't think of any system which works well for both the election and a by-election. PR is a must for the election but how is that proportionality maintained in a by-election without all members in the seat being up for election again.
Sarah Boyack has accepted the peerage sorry seat. Which is good news.
You can resign as a list MSP and keep your seat. It's a bit mad but at least consistent with the idea that you vote for individual(s) and takes some power from the whips.
Well that's enlightening. I confess to ignorance about how the list candidates work.
Sarah Boyack straight into the Scottish Labour front bench, with the Local Government portfolio: https://twitter.com/wornoutmumhack/status/1168521077443702784
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