Excellent idea, @wingpig.
V&C on Mulltrees is somewhere I'd hold a sales event, not a public consultation.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
St James Redevelopment
(596 posts)-
Posted 7 years ago #
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I'd like someone behind this to explain to me in few words how this redesign benefits me in any tiny way at all as a pedestrian, public transport user and cyclist. It looks like hell on toast. Like it should be at some retail park somewhere, not a historic city centre. Why so many lanes of traffic? Where is the positive impact in that for anyone?
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
Edinburgh Council (@Edinburgh_CC)
20/09/2017, 10:27
@SpokesLothian @theSpurtle @allytibbitt @116McD @CyclingEdin @CllrChasBooth @lmacinnessnp Everyone is invited to come along on Sat 10-4pm and learn more about - and feed into - the detailed designs for #PicardyPlace"
(Fri 4-7 too)
Posted 7 years ago # -
Missing a trick; should hold the consultation in the middle of the current roundabout, so folk can bask in the glory of what could be an inaccessible tram stop.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
Developers say the proposed works would improve pedestrian, cycle and vehicle movement.
"
Apart from all that being unlikely, it's still based on the (should have been) outdated 'traffic flow' rationale.
Posted 7 years ago # -
How is one to cycle from Leith St to Broughton St...?
Posted 7 years ago # -
"It's all about as far away from the Sustrans vision as it's possible to get."
https://www.scribd.com/document/231852266/Ideas-for-Picardy-Place-SUSTRANS
Even the Sustrans version assumes lots of traffic.
If it can all disappear for months why does Leith Street have to reopen to anything except buses and bikes?
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
WHEN: Friday 22 September, 4pm–7pm; Saturday 23 September, 10am–4pm WHERE: Valvona & Crolla Vincaffè, 11 Multrees Walk
*The Together for Edinburgh partnership comprises City of Edinburgh Council, Edinburgh St James [i.e. developers TH Real Estate], Laing O’Rourke, and the Scottish Futures Trust.
"
Not forgetting -
"
Refreshments will be available. See you there.
"
http://www.broughtonspurtle.org.uk/news/picardy-place-changing
Ah yes SFT -
"
We are an infrastructure delivery company owned by Scottish Government.
"
https://www.scottishfuturestrust.org.uk/page/the-scottish-futures-trust
Posted 7 years ago # -
Posted 7 years ago #
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Hmm...
One of the most prominent links on the http://togetherforedinburgh.com/ webpage is for parking discounts at Greenside Place...
Posted 7 years ago # -
Ah, so not a "partnership" as such!
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
1,600 COVERED CAR PARKING SPACES
"
http://togetherforedinburgh.com/Leaflet/ESJ_LeithStreetLeaflet_EMAIL.pdf
And
"
The development will also enhance links through this site from Leith Street to Multrees Walk/York Place for the first time in over 40 years, enabling important ease of access for pedestrians and cyclists.
To find out more, visit
"
Really, cycle through MW??
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
Picardy, however, at the heart of everything, has remained consultation-free, with no detailed proposals published since the tram documents in 2009. As a result, speculation has proliferated and artists impressions, many of them almost certainly unrealistic, have gained wide currency on social media.
"
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
Spokes CycleCampaign (@SpokesLothian)
20/09/2017, 11:36 pm
@matthewhalsall @Edinburgh_CC @theSpurtle @allytibbitt @116McD @CyclingEdin @CllrChasBooth @lmacinnessnp Email address for comments/queries about #PicardyPlace scheme is esjcommunity@laingorourke.com. @mark_lazarowicz @LivingStreetsEd @drgs100"
Posted 7 years ago # -
WARNING: the entry point at the north end of the Leith Street tolerance zone has shifted northwards, with the installation of several shiny new cones. I missed it and had to sneak through from Calton Road this morning.
"Really, cycle through MW??"
Doubt it.
"...to Multrees Walk"
Still, remember that we're getting a hemmed-in two-part crossing at the end of Elder Street. We can maybe cycle from that up to the east end of Multrees, then dismount and walk through it, not taking any photographs of shop windows or looking too poor or terroristic, before re-mounting at St Andrew Square.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Why so many lanes of traffic?
I can only assume this stems from the idea that the more vehicles you can cram into a space, the greater the traffic flow... In reality, a lot of the expected upside seems to be lost due to folk straddling lanes as they try to get ahead of everyone else or find they're in the wrong lane for their chosen destination. And buses pull into stops with their rear ends blocking both lanes. Naturally, traffic just backs up at the next bottleneck/traffic lights anyway.
It's also built for the 60 minutes of the day when traffic levels are high. However, the population loses its unfettered access to the (potentially) public space for 24 hours of the day...
How is one to cycle from Leith St to Broughton St...?
I suspect they've taken the view that Leith St to Broughton St is downhill, so cyclists have gravity to help them keep up with the traffic. Which would be a car-centric perspective that there's no need for segregation as cyclists won't be slowing traffic down.
It does not consider whether children or folk who are less confident on their bikes will be able to cycle through this junction (the answer is they won't or they will be terrified when they do). So, in effect undermining the Council's stated strategy of getting more people on their bikes for urban journeys. Not fit for purpose.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@PS, pretty sure the council will point to the (cough. cough) cycling "facility" on the footway next to the Portrait Gallery heading across Queen Street via a dreadful guardrail corral and a zig-zag ramp as the route for "folk who are less confident on their bikes ".
Posted 7 years ago # -
Here's another idea for this busy junction;
Posted 7 years ago # -
From link -
“
“Amsterdam’s public space is limited,” says the vice mayor for traffic, Pieter Litjens, who ultimately approved the pilot. “We need to be thoughtful and strategic about who and what uses that space.”
“
In Edinburgh dealing with “public space” priorities seems to be outsourced to developers backed by the SG.
Posted 7 years ago # -
developers backed by the SG
Ah. Tell us more?
Posted 7 years ago # -
“Tell us more”
Upthread -
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15889&page=8#post-261196
Posted 7 years ago # -
What happens if you turn off the traffic lights?
Drivers will bully their way through.
The only places this work are where motorised vehicles are in a low percentage (how low?) compared to other travel modes.
Check it out with any UK signal controlled junction when the signals fail - do you see a pedestrian phase? Or do you see pedestrians sprint through gaps?
Or consider the priority a pedestrian has when crossing a side street - how many dare to exercise that priority and how many are punished (horns, revving, "nudging", sworn at) for daring to exercise it? And when they do exercise that priority, it's with an apologetic sprint or wave?
Contrast this on the roads surrounding a stadium after the match/show/whatever - the overspill of pedestrians into the streets means drivers are contrite.
Basically, as long as drivers outnumber active travellers at the junction, then drivers will rule the junction.
See also "shared space" which is found in access only roads in the Netherlands, and is attempted on thoroughfares in the UK...
Robert
Posted 7 years ago # -
@Roibeard
For real. The four-way on the Meadows is interesting though, isn't it?
Posted 7 years ago # -
Mostly proves the point, as even there pedestrians defer to cyclists unless there are enough pedestrians to overturn the energy derived heirarchy...
Of course, any resultant issues here are minor grumbles or grazes (generally). And a desire to somehow constrain cyclists like the "give way" markings half way up, where they really needed a zebra crossing!
Unfortunately "sharing" between different modes introduces conflict (cf Union Canal!) and really we should making interactions more easily understood - and I'm happy with the "cyclists are guests" signage on that basis for pedestrian priority routes.
Robert
Posted 7 years ago # -
"Or consider the priority a pedestrian has when crossing a side street - how many dare to exercise that priority and how many are punished (horns, revving, "nudging", sworn at) for daring to exercise it? And when they do exercise that priority, it's with an apologetic sprint or wave?"
Oh aye. I recall a couple of years ago attempting to exercise priority (with partner and children in tow) on a Leith side street. Screeching of tyres. Horn beep. I remonstrate with the angry driver, while holding arm outstretched, police style, to indicate she should halt. Male passenger gets out and threatens me while I attempt to calmly explain that, in fact, his driver should give way, look there's even a sign saying so. The situation quickly deteriorates into a slanging match and threats exchanged. All this while my partner and kids look on aghast.
In short, you have to be a militant pedestrian and be willing to endure dog's abuse to exercise your legal rights when crossing side streets.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Could someone please link me to the place in the highway code about pedestrian priority on side streets? Because I can't find it.
Posted 7 years ago # -
It used to be rule 170, but may have changed... I'll have a look...
Posted 7 years ago # -
There: 170 point 2:
http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/road-junctions.html
170
Take extra care at junctions. You should•watch out for cyclists, motorcyclists, powered wheelchairs/mobility scooters and pedestrians as they are not always easy to see. Be aware that they may not have seen or heard you if you are approaching from behind
•[b]watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way[b]Should, not a must, though.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@fimm: Rule 170
Posted 7 years ago # -
Also:
171
You MUST stop behind the line at a junction with a ‘Stop’ sign and a solid white line across the road. Wait for a safe gap in the traffic before you move off.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 16172
The approach to a junction may have a ‘Give Way’ sign or a triangle marked on the road. You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10(1),16(1) & 25These rules don't refer to pedestrians, but they do say drivers must give way when emerging from side roads/streets with these markings or signage.
I should add that many drivers are extremely reasonable and couteous about these matters. There's an aggressive or inattentive/inconsiderate minority who don't seem to give two hoots for the rules, however. Some will resort to verbal abuse, threats or physical violence should you dare to get in their way.
Posted 7 years ago #
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