Any smaller pRty must be wary of coalition given Nick clegg
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
CEC election 2017 (May 4th)
(1269 posts)-
Posted 7 years ago #
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Wary, yes - and learn from other people's mistakes.
Posted 7 years ago # -
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Green group leader Steve Burgess said: “Ten years after Green councillors were first elected in Edinburgh, this is our most ambitious manifesto yet.
“Edinburgh urgently needs councillors who can combine a commitment to action on day-to-day issues like waste collections, and footway repairs, with a real vision of where our capital city is going. That’s what more Green councillors offer.”
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Posted 7 years ago # -
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Edinburgh Greens (@EdinburghGreens)
08/05/2017, 19:04
It's a full house as we get ready to start our first Branch meeting with 8 Edinburgh Green councillors.http://pic.twitter.com/gm0IhDhUnZ
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Posted 7 years ago # -
Is that new? Thought it was Chas Booth.
No, has always been Steve Burgess.
Wary, yes - and learn from other people's mistakes.
Arguably the biggest lesson to be learned from recent coalitions (and the Greens look to what happened in Ireland as much as what happened to the Lib Dems) is "The minority partner usually gets destroyed at the next election".
Posted 7 years ago # -
I don't vote Green just to feel good about myself - I actually hope they can achieve something. I doubt the Greens would be wiped out by taking part in a coalition in Edinburgh. They have a solid voting base who are dedicated to their cause and I doubt supporters expect them to move mountains as a junior partner of a coalition.
The Lib Dems were wiped out for going against election promises and pretty much everything else people thought they stood for - even acting as policy stunt man for George Osborne. You always knew something awful was about to be announced when a senior Lib Dem got rolled out.
In part, this reticence to get stuck in is what allows the Tories to set the agenda. They have no qualms about getting any sniff of power available and then making the most of it. How much influence do the Greens think they will have on Council policy in opposition when there is a far larger, and very vocal, Tory group. They aren't the only party with "radical ideas" about how the city should be run.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Given how many of us have sympathy for, and indeed on occasion vote for, the Scottish Greens and yet how many of us express frustration at various aspects of their behaviour, might there be scope for a dedicated thread for ideas to make that party more appealing and effective?
http://www.insidemoray.com/greens-will-not-take-part-in-toxic-moray-election/
Posted 7 years ago # -
ideas to make that party more appealing and effective?
Join it?
Posted 7 years ago # -
"Join it?"
For those who want to (or other parties) fine.
The problem here is that the (local) Greens (or is it just those who get elected?) seem averse to coalitions.
The Greens (generally) talk about co-operation and 'rainbow'/'progressive' alliances more than most.
On CEC they seem to think it's better to have occasional alliances (if needed by others) rather than be more involved.
As Morningsider said "How much influence do the Greens think they will have on Council policy in opposition when there is a far larger, and very vocal, Tory group."
Posted 7 years ago # -
@Frenchy
You are of course correct in principle. I put out feelers a couple of years ago, but no one seemed particularly interested in me joining. I then offered to canvass for them in the 2015 SGE and never even got a reply. I do feel slightly unworthy.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@IWRATS in that case, why not join and offer to become a local co-ordinator who would be responsible for fielding enquiries, then you know the job is being done well? SGP local team admin can be patchy, especially in non-target areas, but the situation is definitely improving as we grow.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@chdot - I think it'd be worth your time asking a councillor these questions, it'd be good for them to hear feedback on this kind of thing from non-members who voted for them.
@IWRATS - Disappointing to hear that, but it's not an unknown issue (nor is it unknown in other political parties with far more resources). The Greens had to do a lot of hard work behind the scenes to cope with a huge increase in membership in 2014/2015, and a continuous election cycle since then hasn't left much time for catching up on such matters as these. If you're still interested, your local green candidate from the recent election would be a good person to get in touch with!
Posted 7 years ago # -
"Join it?"
Ah, but then one would have to "get stuck in", rather than "stand at the sidelines" getting frustrated.
Joining a party is the easy bit. There's usually an online form these days. You pay your subs, a membership card arrives in the post.
As those who have taken part in, say, cycle campaigning will know, any political activity by ordinary folk is usually entirely voluntary, and uses up precious time (and sometimes money). Unless you have lots of time available, it can be very difficult to make a real impact. If you want to change a party's policies or approach you'll need to turn up regularly to meetings; help with campaigns; stand for a committee membership or elected office within the party (and garner sufficient votes); do lots of unpaid work; make the necessary arguments in committees, branch meetings; present motions at meetings, committees and conferences; gain the backing of party members for said motions; possibly seek endorsement as a candidate for popular election (and garner sufficient member votes); take part in popular elections; campaign; fundraise; if you're lucky do media interviews; maybe even get elected by garnering sufficient votes from the public; then, finally you might be paid something for doing all this work, unless of course you're a elected as a community councillor or similar, in which case you'll still be volunteering...
Hope I haven't put anyone off.
When I joined the Scottish Greens it was still a very small party, and it was easy to get your voice heard at branch meetings, get to know officers, elected councillors, and so on. Since 2014 the party is much bigger, and there are many more voices at meetings: still possible for yours to be heard, but it might not have the same impact. Many of the newer members appear to be young, enthusiastic, committed, and have lots of time for campaigns, meetings, conference, etc. That's all good, and having more folk certainly helps lessen the burden on individual members during campaigns. However if you happen to have quite limited time available, it can be more difficult to fully participate in the party.
I don't think this is unique to the Greens, I suspect most political parties run mainly on voluntary effort, which inevitably favours those with time and who are very driven and dedicated people.
Personally, I have no ambition to be hold elected office in the party; I don't have the necessary time nor dedication to sit on a committee; I can rarely even attend branch meetings because they usually clash with my work schedule; so I'm pretty much resigned to helping with campaigns occasionally; voting in internal elections; turning up to branch or local group meetings when I can; sometimes taking part in ad hoc issue based working groups; supporting the party; putting the case to members of the public, etc.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that political influence can be quite difficult and/or time consuming to achieve, even within a smaller party. Not impossible though, but you do need time and dedication. Probably the most effective way to make an impact as far as Edinburgh Greens are concerned is to get involved in your local area team. This will usually mean fairly regular contact with the local team and party members, maybe your Green councillor if you have one.
As to the Green group's stance regarding coalition talks in the council, well if you're the smallest grouping in such a coalition, what influence can you realistically exert? Is it more or less the same as the influence you can exert through some other arrangement, such as confidence and supply, or support on a case by case basis?
Posted 7 years ago # -
"@chdot - I think it'd be worth your time asking a councillor these questions, it'd be good for them to hear feedback on this kind of thing from non-members who voted for them."
My views didn't influence them after the last CEC election and neither (it seems) this time.
"If you want to change a party's policies or approach you'll need to turn up regularly to meetings"
Policies not really a problem (unrealistic to think Greens - or any other party - have all the answers 'if only we could get elected').
Thing is they do get elected and hold back (or do I mean "stand at the sidelines"). I assume 'should we join a coalition' has been extensively debated at branch meetings and the consensus is no.
So I remain a mere voter who may or may not vote Green in future.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"As to the Green group's stance regarding coalition talks in the council, well if you're the smallest grouping in such a coalition, what influence can you realistically exert?"
The simple answer is "that depends". Ought to be easier when you are part of the same group who are all (presumably) trying to do the best for Edinburgh even when on some issues they have very different views (e.g. SNP/Lab on 'the constitution').
Greens and SNP certainly closer (in Edinburgh) on refuse collection and 20mph than Conservatives.
"Is it more or less the same as the influence you can exert through some other arrangement, such as confidence and supply, or support on a case by case basis?"
Clearly I think could/should be more. Others think differently.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Anyway it's more than just "influence".
Greens as part of a coalition would expect a Convenorship (perhaps more than one) which would mean greater involvement in the working of CEC - not just policies.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Convenorship doesn't necessarily mean a policy platform is implemented though. Decisions by a committee presumably depend upon the party affiliations of members, and what common interests each group on the committee might have.
I would imagine many committees will have a substantial number of Tory councillors as members this time around, which will presumably make the atmosphere more polarised than has been the case in recent administrations. Maybe not, but if the public statements of candidates are anything to go by, then meetings about budgets, transport, environment, and planning are likely to be more heated than we've been used to.
It's a tricky one, but maybe tripartite coalition is too unwieldy.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Ah, but then one would have to "get stuck in", rather than "stand at the sidelines" getting frustrated.
Indeed. The question is where efforts are best directed. There are other parties I could have joined which are willing to get the filth of power under their fingernails. I could have tried to bring green ideas to them and it might have been more productive in reality. Maybe not mind.
Anyway, I've directed my energies elsewhere. I don't mind getting stuck in at all, but it needs to feel friendly and productive.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"The question is where efforts are best directed."
Well yes. I joined the Greens 7 years ago because I wanted to make a difference, and because the Tories got into government in London again.
As it turns out, I don't have the time to enact much change in the party, that's before the question of persuading others comes in.
What time I have, I'm trying to put into more hyper local issues as and when I can, while remaining a Green party member (but not necessarily shouting about the latter, except maybe on here).
Stuff like that is equally as important (to me maybe even more important) as getting heavily involved in the party politics side of things for its own sake.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I don't think any of the good burghers of CCE could ever be accused of not getting stuck in - a group of more active citizens would be hard to find. However, party politics has never really been my thing and my energies are directed elsewhere. I do feel some affinity with the policy platform of the Greens though and I hope they would welcome a bit of friendly advice. Not that I have any delusion that barking into the howling vortex that is online commentary would make a blind bit of difference.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Obviously I don't understand politics or party integrity or whatever -
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Labour has expelled three senior members in Surrey for trying to unseat the health secretary, Jeremy Hunt, by forming a progressive alliance with local Greens and Liberal Democrats to unite behind an NHS doctor standing against him.
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Posted 7 years ago # -
Similar things have happened before:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bell
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Taylor_(British_politician)Posted 7 years ago # -
"Similar things have happened before"
Yes, must be bad form now(?)
Posted 7 years ago # -
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As well as the SNP’s plan for a partnership with Labour, which would have to rely on some degree of Green support, the Tories have proposed an alternative “pan-unionist” coalition of Conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems.
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Posted 7 years ago # -
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One Labour insider said: “There is no easy solution or it would have been done by now. The SNP is keen to do a deal with us as soon as possible, but quite a lot of Labour people are saying ‘Hang on, let’s not make any mistakes’. “They don’t want to rush into something that might have long-term consequences. The general election makes it difficult for everyone.”
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So, not just a Green issue, then.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@crowriver indeed. It's a shame that the Lib Dems are pro-union since an SNP, Green, Lib Dem coalition could have been interesting, but it seems distinctly unlikely.
Posted 7 years ago # -
What does a party's position on the Union have to do with local government?
Posted 7 years ago # -
"What does a party's position on the Union have to do with local government?"
Quite.
Lab SNP managed to ignore for last five years.
SNP + LD + G have the numbers for a coalition.
Posted 7 years ago # -
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‘Hang on, let’s not make any mistakes’. “They don’t want to rush into something that might have long-term consequences. The general election makes it difficult for everyone.”
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So, not just a Green issue, then.
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Well yes, so the logic is ignore GE or wait a month(?)
Posted 7 years ago # -
I agree that it shouldn't, but the impression that I have is that an SNP, Green, Lib Dem combination is distincitly unlikely for that very reason, but maybe I misunderstood. Certainly the Lib Dems didn't campaign inappropriately on union issues anywhere near as heavily as Labour & Tories.
Posted 7 years ago #
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