CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Braid Hills Drive 'soft' segregation

(34 posts)

12

  1. neddie
    Member

    CEC plan to reduce the speed limit on Braid Hills Dr from 50mph to 40mph...

    From the council:

    As part of the initiative to reduce the speed limit, cycle facilities will be introduced in both directions along the length of this route and it is felt at this time that the introduction of these lanes is enough of a physical change that a reduced speed limit could be implemented.

    While the detailed design has not yet been completed it is planned that the current central hatched area will be removed and replaced with a centre line marking. Cycle lanes with soft segregation will be introduced on both the east bound and west bound carriageways. In addition large scale surfacing (approximately 60%) will be undertaken to ensure the lanes are satisfactory for cycling.

    By 'soft segregation', I think they mean something like this:

    http://www.darkerside.org/2015/06/gcc-seek-feedback-on-soft-segregation-experiment/

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. amir
    Member

    The camber on the sides of that road is amazingly. I usually ride 2m or more from the edge

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    Look forward to seeing the details.

    Of course the bigger question is -

    'Why does it need to be a through road?'

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. crowriver
    Member

    I've seen similar 'soft segregation' in Sofia, Bulgaria. Seems to work pretty well, and is quick (and presumably cheap) to install.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. amir
    Member

    The width of the cycle lane will be crucial. Plus in the winter this area needs to be included in the gritting.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. Arellcat
    Moderator

    'Why does it need to be a through road?'

    Because without going all the way through Blackford it's the only alternative route to get to Liberton if the junction at Fairmilehead crossroads is a) being dug up, and/or b) is busy, which happens much too often, as a result of water and gas mains problems, and cars parked a short distance from the junction which reduces road capacity.

    I wouldn't mind at all if Braid Hills Drive was reduced to 30mph, and had a reduced width point like Old Liston Road has.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. Stickman
    Member

    Budget to be allocated for this in the projects list here:

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/50113/item_77_-_9_budget_commitment_to_cycling

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    A couple of things about this:

    As mentioned above, the camber needs sorting as a matter of urgency before they start penning cyclists into the sides.

    This stretch of road seems to attract a great deal of antisocial nocturnal motoring behaviour, always loads of glass and car bits up there and I've seen burnt out cars on early morning rides before. 'Soft' segregation may not last very long?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. SRD
    Moderator

    is soft segregation really cheaper than concrete / tarmac bits?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. The Boy
    Member

    I imagine reverting back to the previous road layout might be...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. wingpig
    Member

    Fitting a permanent kerb into resurfacing is probably pricier than dropping a line of re-usable concrete lane dividers from the nearest highway maintenance depot, which is what I hope they'd use as they're slightly harder to destroy by crashing into them than flimsy flexible bollards.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. Chug
    Member

    They would also keep out the glass/stones etc that fast moving cars swoosh to the side. I'm not convinced the 40 mph would be adhered to - the 50 mph often isn't

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. Rob
    Member

    It could also mean armadillos, which would be even cheaper.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. cb
    Member

    Despite this being one of the widest roads in Edinburgh it never fails to amaze me how people will often park entirely on the pavement at various points, perhaps to look at the view or go for a walk.

    Will it be likely that some parking spaces will provided at certain points? Hopefully this would be implemented sensibly (i.e. bike lane running to the inside/left of any parking).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. acsimpson
    Member

    While hardly effective segregation. Armadillos do have the advantage that the cycle lane can be swept by a standard road sweeper. Of course they can also be parked in.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. earthowned
    Member

    It's been a while since I was up that way so I took a wee detour on the way home to have a recce. Sorting out that camber will be a massive job - I would estimate a lot more than they have budgeted for. Quite a few cars parked on the pavement/verge - especially near the Lang Linn path- so it doesn't take much imagination to see that will be a problem.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. gembo
    Member

    @earthowned, lovely night for a cycle along braid hills road. I love that route cars go fast but really there should be room camber or not. Sorting the camber and putting in culverts assuming the camber was there for drainage is a big job

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. jonty
    Member

    There's no street lighting for most of BHD so armadillos would be a bit of a hazard at night would they not?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. Neil
    Member

    During summer I quite often take a slightly extended commute into work via Braid Hills Drive- the views are stunning. Any improvement/segregation for cycling would be great.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Well there's no lack of space so we could have a gold standard cycle path if we wished. That said you don't often see people cycling there, despite it being a pretty safe peripheral route. I'd wonder which journeys this would be facilitating. Can't imagine people climbing up to it as an alternative to the Lady Road - Charterhall - Balcarres inner ring.

    Still as long as we can avoid the precipitous plunge into the Hermiage of Braid after smashing through an iron fence in the current cycle network it'll be a step in the right direction.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. Neil
    Member

    The speed limit on that road is quite off-putting, even for a more confident/ faster cyclist. I certainly thought twice about taking that route when I was less experienced.

    The climb up to it will be off-putting regardless, but there's not much to be done about that I guess.

    A good crossing at the Braid Road junction would make a difference- again, not a particularly pleasant junction to get across even for a confident cyclist- pretty busy at commuting times and fairly fast. I've often had to wait quite a while there.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. neddie
    Member

    The South of Edinburgh is seriously lacking in cycle paths though, so anything that can improve that will be good.

    At one time I was commuting Liberton to Corstorphine and Braid Hills Dr was a good route, since you have to make 'the climb' somewhere or another.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. SRD
    Moderator

    IWRATS asks which routes it will facilitate? I've only ever used it for riding from the Crem to the Braid Hills Hotel for a post-funeral reception :( not a journey I aim to increase the frequency of

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @SRD

    Insh'Allah.

    It's actually possible to cycle from Alnickhill Road to Braid Road off-road via Stanedykehead and Morton estate.

    Or via the summit of Braid Hill, but you need to be big on the brakes to get down to Braid Road from there and I'd doff my cap to anyone can cycle back up that path.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  25. Fountainbridge
    Member

    The one objection to the TRO has now been set aside so it's all go.

    Item 8.6 - Objection to Traffic Regulation Order TRO1464 Braid
    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/meetings/meeting/3956/transport_and_environment_committee

    Will be interesting to see how they handle the significant camber.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  26. neddie
    Member

    News from CEC regarding the proposals for soft-segregation:

    """

    Design work on this project is currently on hold. We have recently reviewed the initial design proposals and, as a result of this, it is unlikely that we will now pursue a design incorporating soft segregation at this location. This is due to potential safety concerns over the impact that installing soft segregation measures on an unlit road might have on other road users, especially motorcyclists.
    We are now considering options for an alternative scheme and hope to restart design work on a revised set of proposals later this year.

    """

    See also:
    http://road.cc/content/news/164218-newcastle-motorcyclists-claim-orca-cycle-lane-separators-could-prove-lethal

    Posted 8 years ago #

  27. chdot
    Admin

    From link -

    "

    “No segregation would mean that only the white line was provided, and this is only sufficient on quieter or lightly trafficked streets. On busier roads, this provides no physical protection to cyclists, and would not encourage increased usage of safer cycling infrastructure as is the aim of the safety fund that paid for these changes.

    “While these orcas do not require DfT approval, there is a legal requirement for the cycle lane separator to be installed behind a continuous white line at the edge of the carriageway, which clearly indicates a mandatory cycle lane.

    “The DfT’s view is that such items are considered as street furniture, in a similar way to bollards or guardrail, which could also be placed behind the edge of the carriageway without any approval required.”

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #

  28. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    OK, so we should be demanding hard segregation instead.

    If motorcyclists were to adhere to the proposed revised speed limit of 40mph, I fail to see the risk myself. Do they want all kerbs (which are unmarked by fluorescent paint, of course) removed from unlit roads as well?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  29. Morningsider
    Member

    Is any cycle infrastructure going to be built in Edinburgh this year? I'm not counting the new Sheffield racks, which are great, as they aren't on-road infrastructure.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  30. jonty
    Member

    Work on the Leith Walk segregated lanes started a week or two ago.

    Is Roseburn-Canal starting this year?

    Posted 8 years ago #

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