CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 14years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
@stephan, nice description. I think you have only intercity to York. Aberdeen has an intercity coming from London at certain times (eg 4pm from Kings X ends in Aberdeen at 10.30pm) and the local Edinburgh to Aberdeen train which Has maybe three or four carriages. That is about it for different providers.
An adult embarking on any return journey off peak (after roughly 9.15a.m.) can take two children free which is newish.
The way the passenger network is arranged in Scotland is still largely along the lines of pre-privatisation British Rail. There are "Intercity" services (which was originally a BR trading name, later a business sector in its own right. Older readers will recall the livery of black and white carriages with a red stripe), which in Scotland basically meant anything from Edinburgh or Glasgow heading south of the Border, with some extensions of selected services to Stirling / Inverness / Aberdeen. These are now split up into the East Coast and West Coast services (Virgin) or the Cross Country services (XC). In days of yore before Pendolinos and Voyagers on the West Coast and Cross Country services, e.g. locomotives and carriages, they used to do things like split and join trains at Carstairs or Perth so you could have a long-distance through service to the south from different Scottish destinations by adding or subtracting carriages at the appropriate places.
Pretty much everything else was the Provincial (later Regional) sector, which in Scotland operated under the ScotRail name. So services between major cities in Scotland were not classed as InterCity as they were ScotRail. Regional Railways later brought out the "Express" branding when they tried to improve and differentiate these services. Yes you can catch an InterCity service within Scotland, but only on selected routes at selected times and these are only extensions of longer cross-border services.
Perhaps ScotRail is incapable of really thinking in terms of Edinburgh - Aberdeen or Glasgow - Dundee as really being "InterCity" services, as established railway naming and thinking goes against this.
Perhaps ScotRail is incapable of really thinking in terms of Edinburgh - Aberdeen or Glasgow - Dundee as really being "InterCity" services, as established railway naming and thinking goes against this.
I think that approach was true under the last franchise, but I wouldn't be surprised if "intercity" gets rolled out once ScotRail replace the commuter 170s on these routes with HSTs.
In all of this rail chat we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that ScotRail is delivering a specification provided to it by Scottish Ministers. If Ministers want lots of room for bicycles they have to pay for it.
I like the Dutch model of beater bikes at both ends of a commute and, for me, it is the ideal, but it needs more people cycling to be demonstrably the correct approach. Over to Scottish Ministers to make it so through a joined up approach to active travel...
There is clearly a stronger case for more bike spaces on tourist routes, but TBH I do not know if it would stack up economically to put more space for bikes on those tourist lines where you get (or might get) more cyclists. Again, over to Scottish Ministers to decide whether they want it.
While my experience of European rail travel is limited, I was impressed with some of the local regional services in Germany. These had the advantage of bi-level carriages (and also a more generous loading gauge, i.e. carriage width). Some of the trains we took simply had no seats on the lower deck of one carriage, apart from flip-downs along the walls. This was perfect for bikes, buggies and outsize luggage. Of course not so suitable for urban services, but that sort of thing would be such a boon for rural services.
"ScotRail Alliance managing director Phil Verster was pretty frank when he told MSPs last month: “We are much more interested in developing cycling facilities at stations and in developing cycling as a way to get to our stations. In the end, our trains are not really aimed at moving bicycles."
Phil Verster is quoted here as claiming a direct interest in developing a proper (dutch-style, presumably) cycle network.
So can we expect lobbying to this effect by the Scotrail Alliance?
Or are these merely hollow words addressing MSPs who in turn pass the buck to cash-strapped local councils.
He's simply pointing out one of the key features of their franchise bid: the Bike & Go hire bike service which Abellio have rolled out in other franchises they run.
And all the racks they're building, like the ones at Haymarket.
ah right, the "bike and go" scheme had passed me by.
as i imagine it will continue to do.
And their cycle rescue scheme?
"We want all of our customers to reach their destination promptly and safely, so if something happens to your bike, we'll help you finish your journey.
If you have a rail ticket, ScotRail Cycle Rescue will take you and your bike free of charge, to either your destination for the day or to your nearest ScotRail station to continue your journey.
If you can't get to your destination because it's late in the day - don’t worry. We'll transport you to the nearest Scottish town or city where you may be able to repair your bike and stay in accommodation, ready for train travel the next day.
Call our freephone helpline on 08000 717 212 to get help and advice, making sure you have your valid ticket to hand. See our Cycle Rescue Terms & Conditions below."
admittedly, that innovation plan appears reasonably impressive
First had the Bike Rescue scheme too, I could never work out how one was meant to use it though.
I wonder if the rescue would work e.g. if you took the train to Galashiels and needed rescuing from England (who doesn't?).
I do worry about Phil Verster's line. It would be great if the Dutch-style station facilities do come about but Scotland is also a great place to cycle for the love of cycling and many would prefer to use their own bikes for that. And if you are going for a day out in the borders, you may not like to leave a bike there for months just in case or may prefer to use a rather more svelte option than a Boris bike.
Essentially we want our cake, and to eat it too (and I don't mean that in an over-demanding sense, I've always wondered why on earth you'd have cake and not eat it...).
Decent facilities at the stations, with good links to get in and out, and secure places to lock-up; together with decent provision on the trains to take bikes places. I don't think that's too much to ask.
Scotrail probably deserve some credit for seemingly starting to tackle the former pretty well; but need a kicking over the latter.
Its basically two demands from two almost entirely different set of users. Who'd have thunk it.
Leisure users want to take their bike and go nice places. Commuters want to quickly dump a bike at a major station and jump on a train to somewhere probably less nice.
Scotrail probably deserve some credit for seemingly starting to tackle the former pretty well; but need a kicking over the latter.
It's Scottish Ministers who need the kicking, rather than ScotRail. SM specifies, SR delivers that specification.
Presumably, beneficiaries of the cycle-tourist pound are not high enough in Ministers' minds when setting the spec?
"
The Value of Cycle Tourism Opportunities for the Scottish economy
"
"
The vision of the Cycle Tourism Forum is to establish Scotland as a world class cycle destination where the needs of the visitor come first. The Cycle Tourism Forum is responsible for driving forwards a coordinated approach to the development, delivery and promotion of cycle tourism in Scotland in alignment with the Tourism Scotland 2020 Strategy.
"
http://www.scottishtourismalliance.co.uk/nature-heritage-activities/cycle-tourism/
Perhaps Ministers should read their 'own' publications -
"
5. Continue to develop and maintain the National Cycle Network to provide long distance cycling routes, connecting rural communities and promoting tourism
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CAPS is primarily about functional cycling - cycling for everyday travel. However, it is essential to recognise the contribution to wider policy goals that can be made by greater participation in cycling, in all its forms, and conversely, the contribution that action across a range of policy delivery areas can make to encouraging the uptake of cycling as a modal choice for everyday travel. Cycling is not just a transport issue: it has an impact on health, education, environment, sport, tourism and other policy areas.
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Stagecoach Carries Bikes on Buses
From April 2013 to the October school holidays, all Stagecoach bus journeys to Inverness that start or finish in Cromarty will have the capacity to carry up to 4 bicycles. This is a first for Highland and is being made possible due to a partnership between Stagecoach, The Highland Council, HiTrans and the Million Miles project, funded through the Scottish Government’s Climate Challenge Fund. The route was chosen as it passes through several commuter villages, which are also tourism destinations and the Black Isle has a variety of family/leisure cycle options. In addition, the route passes the Red Rock Mountain biking centre at Learnie. Relevant services are marked with a bicycle icon in the service timetable, with spaces bookable in advance. Cyclists in Highland can already take their folding bikes on all Stagecoach services.
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Furthermore, for cycling tourism, Scottish Natural Heritage’s (SNH) Scotland’s Great Trails (SGTs) 7 is a partnership initiative to promote and develop more of Scotland’s significant routes (over 32km long).
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The continued renaissance of Scotland's canals will see them become bustling centres of activity for recreation, tourism and sport, and act as a catalyst for wider regeneration. With significant public investment the canals have been restored and revitalised and the Scottish Government’s aspirations for canals are set out in the policy document Making the Most of Scotland’s Canals 8, published in April 2013.
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Clearly funding from the transport budget is not the only potential source of investment in active travel. Work to increase the participation in cycling should contribute to a range of policy areas, including public health, environmental quality and community cohesion and regeneration as well as tourism. There is scope for budgets supporting these portfolios to support cycling too, at both national and local levels. Some examples are below and may not have had the cross portfolio coverage they deserved.
...
The Cycle Tourism Forum was set up in 2010 to improve coordination and collaboration between public and third sector organisations and businesses involved in cycling. Membership of the Forum includes Sustrans, Cycling Scotland, VisitScotland and Scottish Enterprise and members are now actively involved in improving cycle route information on VisitScotland.com and the Active Guide for 2014. The Forum has also commissioned research into the economic value of cycle tourism, with the aim of encouraging further investment in the area. Past evidence shows that increasing the number of people engaging in leisure cycling, will result in a proportion of them going on to cycle for utility journeys.
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3.3 The re-determination of suitable urban and rural trunk road footways for joint use by cyclists and walkers. Existing trunk road footways are often suitable for both cycling and walking and the re-determination of these has been Scottish Office Policy for some time. While some lengths of existing footway may form parts of the NCN trunk road interface sections, other lengths may well provide important links in local cycling networks for commuting and leisure/tourism. For instance, the existing A68 footway between Dalkeith and Soutra Hill would provide an excellent facility for the trunk road section of a local tourist route to Haddington
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Slightly related (Scotland as a place to be adventurous.)
"For instance, the existing A68 footway between Dalkeith and Soutra Hill would provide an excellent facility for the trunk road section of a local tourist route to Haddington"
If they think a 1m footpath right next to lorries doing 70 is an "excellent facility", what hope is there?
Oooh chdot, I actually know Willie quite well, cool to see that his adventure is not only making the press but also worthy of note here. Exiting stuff!
"may not have had the cross portfolio coverage they deserved."
Diplomatic civil servicese for "all the departments notionally involved in this kept passing the buck to each other until there was no money left."
Coming late to this again .... @chdot/@arellcat/@kaputnik hint let me know if topic like this comes up!
1) Trains are (or were) leased (now some are purchased as train house in service from train makers who than carry risks on maintenance and spare trains for breakdowns etc)
2) in the 30 year basic book life of a train , and up to 30 years of life extension by remanufacture (as Chiltern, and Scotrail Mk 3 coaches the train will run on various types of service, and thus need to be suited to all the needs as far as possible.
3) bean counters writing service spec look for number of seats being moved at peak hours. Some insists on fixed seats, which cannot be used more flexibly when the train is not full. At peak times trains on some routes can be filled to 200% of the seat-count, and no more coaches can be added.
4) the economics works best when a standard train runs all the time - fixed sets, no oddball vehicles that get added and taken off at times during the day. There is also a clear lifetime total costs rate per sq m per day that the space on a train needs to earn. and although thers is income delivered becaus eomoen can bring a bike on board, if that denies the potential of selling another potential passenger fare then bike spaces are a problem.
@chdot mentioned coaches - you can take bikes on Citylink and Stagecoach express but they must be in bag for most services (the rules do require this) For over a year 65 seat coaches with 6 bike spaces have been running on the X7 Perth to Aberdeen route and carrying at least 40 bikes per week - compare with a 250-seat train that has 2 bike spaces.....
A PS - the 5 tip up seats will fit in 4-5 bikes placed herringbone
What's happening to the brand new only-just-finished racks outside Haymarket station? Just passed on a tram and the road side appear to have been ripped out already!!
Extra row (I think).
?
I didn't go through Haymarket this morning, but yesterday evening the racks were all there and in use.
There's a load of barriers & stuff between them and the road for some reason, which might have given the impression that the racks were out of use, but AFAIK they are still there. I'll try and remember to report back this evening.
Sorry for any panic, I've not been past since row 1 was finished. I was under the impression the project was done / finished per artists impression I saw with 2 rows.
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