CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

"JOURNEY times for buses using Greenways have increased by up to 18 minutes"

(36 posts)
  • Started 7 years ago by chdot
  • Latest reply from hunnymonster

No tags yet.


  1. chdot
    Admin

    "

    JOURNEY times for buses using Greenways have increased by up to 18 minutes in the past decade.

    ...

    Now the city transport leader who introduced the Greenways 20 years ago has blamed council chiefs for failing to enforce and maintain the congestion-busting bus lanes.

    Professor David Begg said: “When they were first introduced, Edinburgh was the only city in the UK to show a consistent improvement in bus journey times. However, since then bus journey times in Edinburgh have reverted to the UK norm and have been increasing by ten per cent every decade.”

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/greenways-journey-times-up-18-minutes-1-4144254

    Posted 7 years ago #
  2. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Prof. Begg's Greenways have largely disintegrated into potholed taxi ranks and magic parking light havens. Hardly surprising.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  3. newtoit
    Member

    It's "our" fault...

    "Nothing against cyclist, but the increase could be down to cyclist slowing up the buses."

    Posted 7 years ago #
  4. newtoit
    Member

    "And the evening-peak journey by the 3 from Wester Hailes to Mayfield via the city centre takes 95 minutes – 13 minutes longer."

    I can believe that. Number of times I've sat on the bus home from work wishing I'd cycled in that morning, spending 20 mins to get along Princes St.

    Bus loading/unloading times are long - much better elsewhere with middle doors for unloading! This morning 4 buses queued at the stop by Salisbury Place, glad I was cycling. They weren't helped by the van loading* just before the bus stop.

    *engine off, doors shut, nobody in sight loading or unloading it - looking distinctly parked from the prior evening

    In an attempt to speed up the 3 it looks like they decided having the bus stop at Waverley would be too sensible and cut that stop. No action taking on taxis waiting for a fare, vans/lorries double parking to load at the Balmoral etc etc. Result - bus takes just as long but you can't get off to go to the station. Why not just enforce the restrictions?

    TBH I don't think there's any right answer. We could all do with the buses being quicker. Less stops doesn't look like the answer (though in some places it seems ridiculous how frequent they are). Parking in bus lanes doesn't help - the number of times the Greggs lorry is holding up buses on Forrest Road is frankly ridiculous yet continues over and over.

    Cyclists hold up the buses apparently - maybe it would all be better if we were given segregated cycle routes along main routes which bypass the bus stops... Wouldn't that be a good idea?

    Posted 7 years ago #
  5. gibbo
    Member

    "Nothing against cyclist, but the increase could be down to cyclist slowing up the buses."

    It sounds unlikely. But let's pretend that true... it makes an excellent case for segregated bike lanes.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  6. AKen
    Member

    Bus loading/unloading times are long - much better elsewhere with middle doors for unloading!

    This is one of the great benefits of the tram. When the tram stops, six doors open, people get off, people get on, doors close and off it goes.

    When a bus stops, one door opens, people get off, one at a time, stopping to hoik bags and buggies out, then people get on, one at a time, pausing to pay individually and ask the driver if this is the bus for the zoo, they then wait for the person upstairs who's just realised it's their stop to push past everyone and then, finally, the doors close and off they go. Repeat this process 300m down the road.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  7. crowriver
    Member

    Buses used to have two doors: one to get on, one to exit. I think they got rid of them because:

    a) they had to comply with disability legislation and have a flat, no step, hydraulically lowered entrance, plus provide a wheelchair space where the exit door used to be.

    b) fare dodgers used to get on at the exit doors on busy buses, necessitating conductors who cost money.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  8. kaputnik
    Moderator

    c) they also had some malicious lawsuits where people claimed to have come down the stairs and tried to go through the doors as they were closing and were injured. Apparently these cases were disproved by Lothian's early adoption of fleetwide CCTV, but I recall it being cited in Chipwrapper articles about losing the middle doors.

    The loss of the middle doors has markedly improved the carriage space on buses for wheelchairs and buggies and prams, encouraging families to use buses and making it less of a lottery for all users as to whether they will be able to get the bus.

    I would however like to see the "don't stand in front of this line" sign moved to behind the front wheel arches of the bus, as people tend to congregate in the narrowest part of the bus here rather than bother to go upstairs for a seat or shift further back in the lower deck. It really slows down the entry and exit time, particularly as younger backpacking type tourists seem to like to dwell here with glaikit looks on their faces, headphones in and a massive rucksack jabbing everyone who tries to squeeze on or off the bus.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  9. sallyhinch
    Member

    It looks like TfL's modelling in London showed that as cycling numbers increased, buses would be increasingly delayed if bus lanes were also used as cycling infrastructure

    http://rachelaldred.org/writing/thoughts/buses-and-bikes-slight-return/

    Posted 7 years ago #
  10. newtoit
    Member

    "Buses used to have two doors: one to get on, one to exit. I think they got rid of them because:

    a) they had to comply with disability legislation and have a flat, no step, hydraulically lowered entrance, plus provide a wheelchair space where the exit door used to be.

    b) fare dodgers used to get on at the exit doors on busy buses, necessitating conductors who cost money."

    Well, on a) - I didn't realise that in Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland etc there were major issues for the disabled whenever they need to get on or off buses... Guess it's a similar concept to the idea that bus stop bypasses will mean blind people and the elderly can never venture outside!

    b) is understandable, but I'm still a firm believer in the notion that people are more likely to buy tickets if you make it easier for them. Prepaid tickets that you validate, and the ability to buy before getting on the bus without having to buy £10 worth, would make it easier. Also never quite followed the logic behind having the ticket inspectors getting on the bus as they do now, when you need to pass the driver to get on anyway.

    I was almost stuck on the bus yesterday when I wanted to get off - having been sat above the rear wheel arch, there was a wheelchair in its bay and a buggy (*heavily armoured pram by the looks of it - whatever happened to strollers?) in its bay, and a full bus of standing passengers. After several polite "excuse mes", the incoming passengers were getting on and I was still stuck at the back of the bus with nobody moving (or having anywhere to move to).

    General decency in that situation would suggest getting off to get out of the way, then stepping back on. Guessing people are afraid to be told to buy another ticket because they got off?! Same issue in London on the DLR/tube when people insist on standing in the doorway whilst everyone is getting on and off...

    Damn, this has got me in a bus rage!

    Posted 7 years ago #
  11. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Also from the pen of Prof David Begg:

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/how-uber-and-online-shopping-have-made-bristol-103358523.html

    "Average speeds in the West Country city are a sluggish 14.3mph – worse than London's 14.9mph."

    "Traffic congestion is a disease which if left unchecked will destroy the bus sector. If the trend is allowed to continue, then our urban buses will no longer represent a viable mode of transport for the majority of customers."

    Posted 7 years ago #
  12. Klaxon
    Member

    We are beyond the point that adding more slow-loading double decker buses will do anything. Bendys are 50% larger and load through three sets of doors.

    Bendy = 49 seated, 100 standing
    Double decker = 75 seated, 25 standing.

    Fare evasion goes up but the number of bus drivers you need on any given route goes down so you can employ inspectors to compensate. Axle loading (leading cause of potholes!) is reduced a lot.

    Edinburgh's bus stop spacing is also really inconsistent, ranging from half a block (Albert St-Shrub Pl) to half a mile (Elm Row - Waverley Station).

    Posted 7 years ago #
  13. steveo
    Member

    Aren't bendy buses pretty disastrous for cyclists?

    Posted 7 years ago #
  14. AKen
    Member

    Edinburgh's bus stop spacing is also really inconsistent, ranging from half a block (Albert St-Shrub Pl) to half a mile (Elm Row - Waverley Station).

    There's two in Juniper Green that are about 90m apart.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  15. Rob
    Member

    Related comment:
    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/comment-it-takes-longer-to-go-anywhere-by-bus-or-car-1-4144475

    "Other steps, like more park and rides, extra train services, and, dare we say it, trams, will likely have a bigger impact."

    No mention of cycling as a congestion reducing option.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  16. minus six
    Member

    UK's miserly obsession with fare dodging is an embarrassment.

    Ditch the barriers, citizens that can pay will pay if the service is efficient.

    But that's the dirty little secret, UK PLC wants top dollar for substandard services.

    Let the underclass ride black, its in everyone's interest for public travel to be fluid.

    Or is free travel only for the baby boomers..

    Posted 7 years ago #
  17. crowriver
    Member

    @bax, best not travel by public transport in many other European countries without a ticket. When the undercover ticket inspectors suddenly don their armbands and demand to see your ticket, if you don't have one not only will they haul you off the bus/tram/metro physically at the next stop, you'll also pay a substantial spot fine.

    Alas the reality is that if the UK was to go all laissez faire on folk paying (see what I did there?) then fare dodging would become an epidemic once passengers realised they could get away with it.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  18. Klaxon
    Member

    When amongst a group of friends you collectively see inspectors a couple of times a month it's enough to make all but the most determined think twice.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  19. minus six
    Member

    @crowriver often it isn't a criminal offence per se - if you're caught ticketless by a kontroller then you are billed on the spot and obligated to pay the "full fare" which is typically around 60 euros if travelling without an advance ticket.

    This allows temporarily cashless people to get around, while not stifling everyone else with barriers.

    It would never catch on in blighty, unfortunately

    Posted 7 years ago #
  20. "Ditch the barriers, citizens that can pay will pay if the service is efficient."

    Pretty sure this guy could both afford the fares, and thought the service was good enough to use all the time.

    Citizens that can pay... won't if they know they can get away with it.

    Certainly when I was a student in France there wasn't an 'ah well, pay if you can, if not then tickets are just barriers man' attitude. Much more crowriver's vision (and very very frequent ticket inspections on buses and metro, and even on the funicular railway to our halls).

    Posted 7 years ago #
  21. minus six
    Member

    pay if you can, if not then tickets are just barriers man

    If you expect to be challenged by a kontroller around once a week on average, then you're not going to bother with the schwarzfahren, as it's not cost effective.

    Skint jobless people not commuting daily might be tempted to chance it for a few stops now and then.

    Its no hanging matter, and I'm no naive hippy.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  22. Rob
    Member

    @WC so, he dodged £43k of rail fares and when caught out was only forced to pay those fares? That doesn't seem like a deterrent to me.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  23. "That doesn't seem like a deterrent to me"

    Yes. Kinda my point.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  24. Calum
    Member

    "Average speeds in the West Country city are a sluggish 14.3mph – worse than London's 14.9mph."

    I dispute the notion that this is "worse". I like congested motor traffic. The slower the better. Means they can't get up enough speed to kill me.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  25. acsimpson
    Member

    It's the fear of the fine which will keep people on the straight and narrow. A quick check of red lights during rush hour will show you that Brit's are quite happy not to follow the rules if they think it wont cost them.

    The tram seems to be an example of the penalty fare system working. Although in this instance there is a uniformed inspector on each tram so the chances of managing more than a stop without being checked are slim, however the "fine" is only £10. If the fine was higher then the checks could be less frequent and still maintain the same deterrent.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  26. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    "@WC so, he dodged £43k of rail fares and when caught out was only forced to pay those fares? That doesn't seem like a deterrent to me."

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/dec/15/ca-ban-43000-fare-dodger-financial-services-industry-blackrock-jonathan-burrows

    Loss of job & life ban from industry sounds like a pretty good deterrent to me, albeit it could have worked out differently if his name hadn't become public.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  27. Ed1
    Member

    The Edinburgh tram has a conductor on every tram I think, in Germany most trams don’t, don’t think ever been on Edinburgh tram and not asked for a ticket.

    I think the best example of the European approach in the UK is the DLR no barriers and don’t normally get asked for a ticket such a contrast to the tube.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    Traffic congestion in the Capital threatens the reliability of the city’s bus services, according to the managing director of Lothian Buses.

    Richard Hall told the Evening News that increasing congestion is turning ­customers away from using bus services as the company announced improvements and new routes ahead of the ­reopening of Leith Street, which has been closed since September 2017.

    Department for Transport statistics show that there has been a 5.8 per cent decrease in bus use since the same period last year, with the city’s nose-to-tail traffic thought to be at fault.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/traffic-congestion-a-threat-to-lothian-buses-reliability-1-4761768

    Posted 5 years ago #
  29. Klaxon
    Member

    5.8 per cent decrease in bus use since the same period last year

    I wouldn't be surprised if much of this drop is from the Leith Walk catchment area due to St James work. I'd make an occasional trip on a bus to town before, whereas this year I have always cycled or walked.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  30. Morningsider
    Member

    The 5.8% decrease figure is for the whole of Scotland (comparing January-March 2018 with the same period in 2017). I imagine Lothian Buses know exactly how many passengers they have been carrying without relying on the UK Department for Transport.

    Figures: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/715419/quarterly-bus-statistics-january-to-march-2018.pdf

    Posted 5 years ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.


Video embedded using Easy Video Embed plugin