http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36436280
Spotted a 20 sign on Princes Street this evening. It's coming!
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
Signs and lines to be fitted in Edinburgh city centre 20mph zone
(38 posts)-
Posted 9 years ago #
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Riding home in the '20mph zoned for absolutely bloody ages' streets around my house tonight reminded me just how pointless the signs are if there's no enforcement. My initial optimism and enthusiasm about wider rolled out 20 zones has diminished to virtually zero at present....
Posted 9 years ago # -
Saw an advert on the back of a bus this morning "Life is better at 20", gently prompting drivers that 20mph limits are coming.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Spotted the algo-mobile with a 20's plenty sticker.
Need to get one for the edd1e_h-mobile...
Posted 9 years ago # -
Saw another one on St. Andrews Square today. If they're not going into force until the end of July shouldn't they be covered up until then? Enforcement is going to be hard enough without telling people they can ignore the signs for two months.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Riding home in the '20mph zoned for absolutely bloody ages' streets around my house tonight reminded me just how pointless the signs are if there's no enforcement. My initial optimism and enthusiasm about wider rolled out 20 zones has diminished to virtually zero at present...."
Totally this. Cars will still drive at 35-40mph. There will be no meaningful enforcement. It will just be more annoying.
Posted 9 years ago # -
What we need to do is to appeal to the misanthrope deep within every driver to persuade them that driving at 20 will annoy all those behind them...
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
03/06/2016 2:31 PM
Gr8PretenderYeeehah, I can't wait to be able to raise my speed to 20mph.. I can't remember the last time I hit that dizzy speed on St Johns Road going through Corstorphine....
Its all going to help with all those lovely emissions that will be flowing around that little bit longer. Maybe worth banning HGVs and busses to help the traffic flow better!
"
Posted 9 years ago # -
I do love the fact that motorists suddenly seem concerned about air pollution, traffic flow and street clutter. Not that any of them would ever deem tor visit the city centre - they all go to Livingston, as you can't park in the city centre - all the parking spaces are taken up by feminist collectives' VW camper vans and Maseratti's given to asylum seekers by Nicola Sturgeon.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@edd1e_h I got that sticker from SRD I think - she may have some more. The van has POP, spokes and 20mph stickers on it. Pretty incongruous for such a vehicle. I hardly ever drive it, so it's up to Mrs Algo not to make it a driving hypocrisy. I want to also get a "Cyclists Stay Awesome" sticker.
Posted 9 years ago # -
mgj What we need to do is to appeal to the misanthrope deep within every driver to persuade them that driving at 20 will annoy all those behind them...
Now THAT could work!
Maybe worth banning HGVs and busses to help the traffic flow better!
"All drivers should be banned except me"
Say all drivers..
Posted 9 years ago # -
20's Coming and on Wednesday 8th Feb the first 20mph Places conference is being held in Scotland. With presentations from the City Council, Transport Scotland, Police Scotland , authorities from across the UK who have already implemented city-wide 20mph limits and wlalking and cycling advocates then this is a great conference for anyone campaigning for lower speeds.
See the full agenda at http://www.20splenty.org/edinburgh_ready_for_20_conference
We also have a few heavily subsidised olaces for lower speed campaigners at just £30 for the day. SO if you have been involved then just contact me at rod.k@20splenty.org
Best wishes
Rod King
Posted 9 years ago # -
mgj What we need to do is to appeal to the misanthrope deep within every driver to persuade them that driving at 20 will annoy all those behind them...
Now THAT could work!
Its why I do it. ;)
(besides the legal, safety and consideration arguments)
Posted 9 years ago # -
"What we need to do is to appeal to the misanthrope deep within every driver to persuade them that driving at 20 will annoy all those behind them..."
This is the exact opposite of what will work. Drivers often behave as they do because of social pressure to not hold up the drivers behind them. This is such an overwhelming pressure it can lead to lots of bad decisions at junctions. Just recall what happens if the first car at a set of lights is a bit late moving off once the signals change, even by a second or two: BEEP! BEEP! Drivers cursing the one in front, assessing whether they can overtake, etc.
Holding up other drivers is the number one sin, to be avoided at any cost. It's also one of the main reasons why many drivers hate cyclists: because we are holding them up by "getting in the way"...
So what I can predict is what appears to already happen in existing 20mph zones. The drivers obeying the law will soon find a Mr. Toad behind them trying to overtake, or beeping at them for going "too slow" and holding them up. Thus those respecting the speed limit will find themselves under pressure to break it.
That's exactly what happened on the A9 and M90 before the introduction of average speed cameras. The threat of enforcement through financial penalties has now moderated this social behaviour by appealing to drivers' self interest. Without enforcement, speed limits or indeed any restrictions will be only partially effective. See the School Streets pilot: with no enforcement, drivers just ignore the restrictions.
Posted 9 years ago # -
^^^ every word of this.
Of course I do still drive at 20 in the 20 zones, but I'm not that fussed about having some angry muppet behind me in the car (I do worry about what happens if I've got that driver riled up, and then they come across a cyclist who does something they don't like).
Needs enforcement. Doesn't need the police in the past having said they don't have the resources to enforce 20mph zones. Oh.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Holding up other drivers is the number one sin
Indeed; you rarely see a car with magic parking lights on blocking a lane of a road when there's a perfectly good pavement / double yellows/ dropped kerb/ pedestrian crossing to plonk themselves on.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I worry that I find this 'the police say they won't enforce it' line being trotted out as often by opponents (why are we wasting resources...) as by supporters (we need more resources...).
I'm not entirely sure what the police position actually is nor that they have said this - for instance, it's not what they said to the council's transport forum when the policy was being developed, when they explicitly said that they were planning for it and investing in the appropriate equipment.
I have seen this reported in the press by the EEN - that bastion of accurate reporting -- and repeated by many, many commentators to the extent that I worry that it is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@SRD, in the days of L&B Police it was an official statement, issued to the press, and on their own website, that they wouldn't enforce 20mph zones. Black and white. Horse's mouth.
Police Scotland may have recanted on that, but in all of the 20mph zones in which I ride I've never once seen the police with a speed gun out, and I'm regularly passed at 30-40mph.
Self-fulfilling maybe, but with concrete beginnings, and ongoing direct practical experience.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@SRD it was the published position of Lothian and Borders.
L&B FoI request from August 2011
The Police Scotland position however isn't publicly available, presumably to keep the "otherwise law abiding motorist" guessing.
Police Scotland Speeding Standard Operating Procedure
I suspect it's the same as L&B's previous position, but they realised that admitting it is counterproductive.
Robert
Posted 9 years ago # -
Ah yes, also, official response to the original plans for 20mph zones was effectively "we support them fully, but probably won't have the resources to enforce them".
Posted 9 years ago # -
2011? well, 2 years ago, that's not what I was told.
what I have seen them say is "we'll enforce them in the same way that we enforce current limits". which is not the same thing.
i have heard people claim 'their speed guns don't work under 30/40m/hr' - which is rubbish.
I'm sure we've all seen cars driving too fast in 30 and 20 mph zones.
The data suggests that rates did drop in the pilot areas - if not as much as we would like.
one point that someone - daisydaisy i think - made was that as drivers learn in areas that are almost entirely 20mph, they will become accustomed to driving at that speed.
this is a huge and brave step that has the potential to transform our streets.
find it immensely frustrating that you are all so persistently negative - and repeating many of the same arguments as the out and out opponents.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't exist. But that they should exist and be enforced.
The other flipside (as ever there is research can show all sorts of things) is that because 20mph is viewed as 'slow', combined with not being enforced, is that it further normalises law breaking, and that filters up into people then breaking the law more in 30 zones, 40 zones etc etc.
The arguments are repeated because they're true - and therefore pressure needs to be put on to have the limits enforced. The average speed cameras are a brilliant example of 'softly, softly', versus 'you're gonna get caught', which demonstrate perfectly that drivers are capable to sticking to limits.
(and I'm not sure where the speed gun point came from given I don't think anyone here has raised that as an 'argument' against 20 zones).
Posted 9 years ago # -
I understand the frustration, but I can only go by experience. My experience of existing 20mph zones is that drivers "drive to the conditions" i.e. if there are speed bumps, road narrowing, lots of side junctions etc. they tend to drive more slowly. If there's a flat straight race track with no junctions and good visibility, they'll tank it regardless of the speed limit.
I wish I could say that the School Streets pilot at my kids' primary was a great success. However, apart from some changed behaviour during the first few weeks when there was a visible police presence, the restrictions are now pretty much being ignored by the majority of those parents who prefer to drive their offspring to and from the gates. Without enforcement, it seems it just won't work.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Easy way to find out the current position:
Dear Sirs
In August 2011 Lothian and Borders Police answered a Freedom of Information request regarding 20mph speed limits which noted that the police force did not enforce such speed limits; carried out speed checks with Traffic Support Wardens; and that no fines or other punishment were issued for drivers found breaking the 20mph limits.
I wish to ask the following questions under the Freedom of Information Act:
1. Is the policy of Police Scotland the same as that which was detailed by Lothian and Borders Police in 2011?
2. With the growth of 20mph zones in Edinburgh specifically, will the Police Scotland force in Edinburgh enforce the 20mph limits in that city?
3. How many drivers received speeding fines, or other punishment for breaking the 20mph limit in Scotland in 2015?
4. How many drivers received speeding fines, or other punishment for breaking the 20mph limit in Edinburgh in 2015?
5. How many drivers received speeding fines, or other punishment for breaking the 30mph limit in Scotland in 2015?
6. How many drivers received speeding fines, or other punishment for breaking the 30mph limit in Edinburgh in 2015?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Of course, the best way to slow cars to 20 is to give half the road width over to a segregated bike lane. Done properly, it makes for a relaxing commute.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@SRD - I'm persistently negative about policing of road traffic offences due to my experiences with the police. It's simply not a priority for them, and they appear not to consider it worthwhile in the absence of deaths or injuries. Automated policing seems to be the only hope for this or "self-policing" which just a little step above the "play nice" requests.
@WC - I'd be surprised if you get answers to 1 and 2, as my link was to their FoI publication scheme where the paragraphs are as follows:
5.7 Enforcement of 20 MPH Limits
5.7.1 The increasing introduction of 20 mph speed limits throughout the country has identified the need to develop a policy position in relation to the force's approach to their enforcement.
5.7.2 Existing guidance highlights that it is imperative that Local Authorities & Trunk Road Operating Companies give careful consideration to the selection of sites that require the introduction of a 20 mph speed limit.
5.7.3 The guidance also states that any lowered limit should be 'self-enforcing' and sustainable, either as a result of the current road layout, existing vehicle speed data, or through the addition of appropriate physical speed reduction.
5.7.4 Clear evidence should therefore be available to support any proposed speed limit change and this should include the analysis of any existing issues or risks.
5.7.5 Information has been removed due to its content being exempt in terms of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002, section 35(1) (a) & (b) - Law Enforcement
5.7.6 Information has been removed due to its content being exempt in terms of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002, section 35(1) (a) & (b) - Law Enforcement
I think these final paragraphs contain the bit of interest, being the enforcement criteria, the prosecution thresholds, the enforcement deployment criteria, etc. But that's just my speculation given that it has been comprehensively redacted.
I also suspect that they won't be able to distinguish between offences in a 20 mph or 30 mph zone without excessive work, yet it would be good to know the outcome of your FoI.
Robert
Posted 9 years ago # -
I am negative as I think that it is actually worse when a good scheme has been put in place and does not work as it is not enforced than if no scheme had been put in place at all. The bottom half of Leith Walk is one of the most annoying places in town to cycle, because of the colourful "second parking lane". Partly, it is simply annoying that drivers flout well intentioned law. More significantly, it demonstrates an unwillingness amongst the authorities to enforce any reasonable standard of driving behaviour that takes account of other road uses, and this spills over to behaviour in other places.
Posted 9 years ago # -
It is, of course, at least a statement by the council that the safety of vulnerable road users is more important that car drivers getting there as fast as possible.
If I drove much, I'd be looking forward to sticking rigorously to the new speed limit. But I don't drive much.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I would tend to guess, that many people will still go over 20 mph, human nature etc, in the same way cannal people cycle too fast and ignore the signs to dismount etc, I ignore the ones by the tram track often. I almost never drive in Edinburgh once this year so far. Although I imagine people will still break the 20mph, may be they will go at 30mph instead of 40 mph so can only be an improvement for cycling. Just a shame no reduction in speed on the westerhailes road in to Edinburgh.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I'll be sticking to the 20 limit - it's an incredibly relaxing speed to drive at - in my great big motor. I don't drive it that often (average of once every two or three weeks), but I'm always happy to enforce the law by example. :-)
Posted 9 years ago #
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