CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Dodgy driver database discussion thread

(42 posts)
  • Started 7 years ago by nobrakes
  • Latest reply from nobrakes

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  1. nobrakes
    Member

    I originally posted this in the today's rubbish driving thread but it's being moved here to promote discussion.

    Original post below.

    --------

    Hi all,

    one of the reasons I joined this forum was to float an idea amongst the user base here. I have had enough close shaves and one serious incident(forced to make a choice between being squashed between white van man and a parked bus or go into back of the bus - I chose the latter and hit the back at about 25 MPH roadrunner style). I have had so many stressed postal worker drivers coming out of the depot at me in sighthill without looking that I almost expect it as part of my daily commute to Edinburgh Park.

    I am thinking of putting together a simple site that would allow people who have captured clear footage of dangerous driving on camera to report it into a central repository. The idea would be as follows:

    1) You capture footage with reg plate clearly visible
    2) You upload footage to youtube
    3) You go to the site that I create, enter reg plate number, link to youtube video, title and short description of incident and point out the location via a google map
    4) Info is stored in a database

    Due to lack of time etc it would be a quick and dirty web site for now, but the idea would be that over time, the functionality could be extended to provide reporting on the database, e.g. incidents could be plotted on maps, users could search for reg plate numbers etc and we could spot repeat offenders and so forth. I have no idea where it would lead but perhaps it could be useful in backing up reports to the police if there is evidence of repeat offending.

    If there is enough support and desire amongst the forum here I'd be happy to put some time in to knock up something that would be capable of taking data in - extending reports etc could be done at a later date. I just need to check that such a site would not be breaking the law in any way.

    Comments welcome...

    Cheers,
    David

    Posted 7 years ago #

  2. urchaidh
    Member

    How would it differ from existing sites such as rate-driver.co.uk?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  3. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    My unease is as stated on t'other thread. Simple matter of the car changing hands, and the new owner being stuck with the stigma of that vehicle.

    Hadn't heard of rate-driver before...

    Posted 7 years ago #

  4. nobrakes
    Member

    "@nobrakes - how would it differ from rate-driver.co.uk?"

    That looks like exactly the kind of thing we are looking for. It would be Edinburgh specific though, and if you are the site designer you get the benefit of being able to extend things in whatever way suits instead of relying on a third party website.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  5. nobrakes
    Member

    Also looks like a bit of a free for all on rate-driver given the profanity in the comments

    Posted 7 years ago #

  6. urchaidh
    Member

    Also looks like a bit of a free for all on rate-driver given the profanity in the comments

    Indeed, it's a cesspool, but without strong moderation I suspect any similar site would go the same way. Might be fine at first with just mild mannered CCEers on board but once those who lurk in the darker corners of the EEN comment section (for example) get hold of it - Armageddon!

    Posted 7 years ago #

  7. Morningsider
    Member

    I don't see the point in this. I would report seriously bad driving to the police (although I have never done this in many years of cycling). Anything else generally washes over me. I might rant a bit if close passed or the like, but tend to have forgotten about it by the time I get where I'm going. Why hold on to the rage - it can't be good for you.

    Also, its not as though you can avoid drivers recorded on a database - they are entitled to go anywhere, as are you.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  8. nobrakes
    Member

    The point I am thinking of is this - if there is ever a serious accident involving someone, if there is documented evidence of the same driver doing dodgy stuff previously, it may support a prosecution case. If it can e demonstrated said driver is clearly reckless with regard to other people's wellbeing, perhaps it will make a difference. I am aware the police tend not to take video footage that seriously, so it is an attempt to try and push the envelope a little bit in that regard. I agree holding onto rage is a bad idea. I don't want to build a 'lets rant about bad drivers' site.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  9. jonty
    Member

    My concern would be lots of libel threats as soon as it got remotely popular.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  10. neddie
    Member

    Perhaps the publicity such a site could bring could shame the police into action?

    Otherwise, it is an invisible menace to the world.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  11. neddie
    Member

    @jonty

    There is nothing libelous about filming video in a public place.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  12. jonty
    Member

    No. But posting it under the banner BAD DRIVERS EDINBURGH, with the description "this guy almost killed me!" could be, especially if it can be argued that the video is missing some context. All it takes is a few substantiated threats (what's the betting that plenty of the drivers caught on camera in Edinburgh are lawyers/rich/well-connected?) to make it a big organisational headache.

    I wonder how the guys who post stuff on youtube get on with that sort of thing?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  13. ih
    Member

    Nobrakes: "The point I am thinking of is this - if there is ever a serious accident involving someone, if there is documented evidence of the same driver doing dodgy stuff previously, it may support a prosecution case."

    My understanding of prosecution procedure and evidence is that it doesn't matter what happened in previous incidents, it's only the circumstances leading up to the case in question that count. I know it's frustrating because I believe a lot of really anti-social behaviour is probably due to a relatively few people and it would be nice to "target" them in some way. But on balance I think this is veering towards vigilantism and there ought to be other ways to tackle the problem.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  14. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "My concern would be lots of libel threats as soon as it got remotely popular."

    Pedantically, defamation in Scotland covers both libellous and slanderous behaviour. One absolute defence is of 'truth'. So would depend on the phrasing in some instances, but if there is a video showing something, then someone says, "It felt like he was about to kill me" then there's nothing defamatory in that.

    "I wonder how the guys who post stuff on youtube get on with that sort of thing?"

    Because of the above. With video evidence it would be virtually impossible to prove defamation, unless the person posting went off on a tangent about what the driver allegedly gets up to at weekends with a peppa pig onesie.

    There's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much concern / paranoia / misinformation goes around about what you can and can't film in public and then put online. To turn the question round slightly, if it was illegal, or massively defamatory, why are people not being prosecuted left, right and centre for it?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  15. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "... it's only the circumstances leading up to the case in question that count"

    Depends. If part of someone's defence is that they are a lovely person, and look at all this stuff they've done in the past to care for orphaned kittens, then the prosecution is entitled to lead character and previous actions stuff.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  16. ih
    Member

    @WC Yes, but I'm sure no self-respecting defence brief would fall for that one, when there are plenty "the sun was in my client's eyes" and similar defences available rather than rely on a nebulous "my client's a really nice careful driver."

    Posted 7 years ago #

  17. Min
    Member

    But on balance I think this is veering towards vigilantism and there ought to be other ways to tackle the problem.

    Well there ought to be. But really there isn't :-/

    Posted 7 years ago #

  18. ih
    Member

    @Min So do you think we shouldveer towards vigilantism rather than use other methods to try and find that other solution?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  19. Min
    Member

    Frankly, yes. The police, the courts and any other parts of our justice system have been shown time and time again to be heavily stacked against cyclists.

    How would you propose to get them working for us rather than against us?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  20. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    @ih, absolutely. I was just pointing out that it is possible in certain circumstances to lead such evidence, in response to your post, which was a pseudo-query...

    Posted 7 years ago #

  21. wingpig
    Member

    "My understanding of prosecution procedure and evidence is that it doesn't matter what happened in previous incidents, it's only the circumstances leading up to the case in question that count."

    My current understanding of "evidence" (based on being in a jury last year) is that the jury is only allowed to consider as evidence that which has been 'spoken to' in the courtroom - in the case of video footage a qualified policeman had to have pointed it out and described what it appeared to show for it to be valid.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  22. nobrakes
    Member

    Vigilantism is not my intention. If there's a will to do this it needs to be something that is useful, factual and free of mud slinging etc. This almost certainly means it will need to be moderated. Maybe require user accounts to help control it.

    There may also be no legal grounds for using such a database in a prosecution. However, you have to start somewhere. If it moves things in the right direction it is worth doing (IMO). I feel two things very strongly:

    1) Cyclists get a bad deal in this country and the police don't provide enough backup for prosecutions (putting idiot cyclists to one side for the moment)
    2) Cyclists themselves are the best means of crowdsourcing the data needed to change this via on board cameras.

    Some interesting discussion being provoked here. It will be nice to see if there's any consensus on something that could be useful.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  23. condor2378
    Member

    I like the idea. If the police won't take the situation seriously then why not look to do it ourselves?

    @WC has a valid comment on stigmatising new owners of vehicles, however we overlook this when posting licence plates on our Todays Bad Driving Thread.

    Similarly in our Todays Bad Taxi Driving thread, we post licence plates there and they can and often do have numerous drivers. Indeed hasn't it been used by a cab company previously that they couldn't identify who a bad driver was as a number of people use the cab?

    On that note though, I have posted a bad taxi encounter previously, which was then posted again by @wingpig who added it to his complaint to the commissioner (SIDENOTE: they said that the previous video (mine) had been dealt with so was closed, though I hadn't actually submitted to the commissioner, not sure if someone else complained or they just said that to get out of it).

    Anyway, I am +1 for this. If anything it will be useful collection of data. Integrate it with googlemaps a la Crashmap and you'd soon build up a picture of bad drivers and where they are most likely to be found.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  24. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "we overlook this when posting licence plates on our Todays Bad Driving Thread.

    Similarly in our Todays Bad Taxi Driving thread, we post licence plates there"

    Not all 'we'.

    I'd say there's probably a difference as well between a thread within a forum with occasional plates, and a site the entire purpose of which is to store reg details in order to shame the drivers.

    Perhaps a false distinction on my part (especially considering I don't post reg details on either). I was once given a right telling off by a cyclist on YouTube for not putting the reg number up. My argument that I had given the police the relevant information, and that's where that information belonged, rather than on the cesspool that is YouTube cut no ice*.

    *I did originally put some reg numbers on, before I decided it wasn't something I wanted to do.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  25. condor2378
    Member

    @WC, Noted. I should have said "some of us", and not "we".

    Posted 7 years ago #

  26. neddie
    Member

    In Sweden, there is a publicly available database that links reg plates to names and home addresses.

    If someone cuts you up, you can go and knock on their door.

    In Sweden they also have a "zero road deaths" policy.

    If you are a pedestrian or a cyclist and another pedestrian or cyclist barges in front of you, you can go and speak to them directly.

    This whole thing about "protecting the identity of bad drivers" is helping to perpetuate the bad driving itself.

    Go figure...

    Posted 7 years ago #

  27. Ed1
    Member

    In the uk, there are effectively 2 systems, the main one where dvla and insurance companies have access the other one where only police have access.

    Some government workers including some police peoples private cars,some forces private cars, security or people working for outsourced contactors and some official cars have their number plates blocked form the DVLA system. In theory any one can apply to have their car blocked but typically associated with government.

    The number plates only show up on the PNC. The police are not allowed to give the name and address of the person with blocked plates to insurance companies or the dvla.

    The motor insurance bureau wont pay out if you get hit by a crown vehicle or a private vehicle with blocked or supressed plates.

    My car and another was hit by someone with blocked plates and caused 1600 worth of damage to my car, Even though the police knew who he was correctly under the rules they refused to give the information to my insurance company.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  28. paddyirish
    Member

    @edd1e_h

    the thought of that in this country scares the beejayzus out of me. There'd be road/rage/lynch mob type incidents all the time.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  29. unhurt
    Member

    Home addresses? That would worry me a lot - the thought of some guy who takes issue with being able to memorize my number plate and then show up on my doorstep? Argh! Maybe this is more of a concern for women? (But surely that would allow people to get co-workers home addresses, addresses of people who have annoyed them in a shop, etc. etc. - basically to get the home address of almost anyone who owns a car by watching them walk to their car & noting the reg? If it does work like that I can only assume they remove e.g. people with violent ex-partners etc. who would like to know where they live.)

    Posted 7 years ago #

  30. Ed1
    Member

    The dvla is no longer considered secure as outsource parking companies can set up and apply for address. So in the ex-partner case if an ex-partner example was determined to gain the address that way may well be able to through private parking leak. Its why the blocked plate scheme was introduced possibly.

    Posted 7 years ago #

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