CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

"Proposed Grange Road cycle and pedestrian crossings"

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Issue:
    The high levels of traffic on Grange Road at peak times have been reported to the Council as a barrier to people trying to cross the road by bike and foot to get to work, school, university and local trips.

    Purpose and context:
    The scheme will make it easier, safer and quicker for people crossing Grange Road on foot and by bicycle.

    This will help people on foot and by bicycle to reach local and key destinations, such as Sciennes Primary School, Edinburgh University campuses, the Meadows and the city centre.

    "

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/wh7uhimi2nkreh8/1.1%20Consultation%20summary%20sheet.pdf?dl=0e

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. Fountainbridge
    Member

    Where is the original document from? Doesn't look like a standard council doc.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    Consultants

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. Nelly
    Member

    Option 2 please.

    If option 1 was chosen, I wouldn't be happy letting kids or elderly cross - it's a fast road (sadly).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. MediumDave
    Member

    Grange road will be 20mph from March next year, so hopefully should be "fast" no more. We'll see.

    Personally I'd prefer the zebras.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. cc
    Member

    Either option would be an improvement - although I'm struggling to see how you could put any sort of crossing in the middle of the Lauder Road / Grange Road crossroads? Lauder Road is very wide.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. slowcoach
    Member

    The devil may be in the detail. There might be enough space (if all traffic except pedestrians and cyclists had to turn left in or out of Lauder Road?) to put in large splitter islands on Lauder Road, and have a zebra crossing over Grange road between them?

    Pedestrian crossings are normally set back from junctions, with signals further away than zebra crossings. So (unless something quite unusual is planned) pedestrians and cyclists using the side road would have to turn and go along Grange Road for 20m to signals, or 5m to a zebra, wait to cross, cross and then travel back to the side road. And, unless there are crossings either side of the junction, travelling the opposite direction would involve crossing the side road twice and contra-flowing to and from the crossing as well.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. neddie
    Member

    Consultation is tonight at Newington Library until 8pm

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. Roibeard
    Member

    Thanks Eddie, made it in time, due to your reminder!

    Robert

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. bruce_mcadam
    Member

    I went to the exhibition yesterday evening.

    The proposal for Lauder road is either a zebra-with-bike or a toucan crossing on the east side of the junction. Northbound cyclists would have to cross to the right side of the road (using a short lane I think) to get to the crossing. I wouldn't use it as it would mean watching for traffic behind and on three incoming roads before moving over and substituting 2 right turns and a crossing for a straight ahead crossroads. (I approve the proposal to make corner radius smaller though).

    I liked the zebra crossing for Lovers Loan. (They need to sort whole of this route as there is a deviation at every crossing when pushing a buggy).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I liked the zebra crossing for Lovers Loan.

    Wouldn't it be nice if someone took this path seriously? You'd need to widen it a bit, but I'd volunteer for the job of making compulsory purchases of the adjoining Grange gardens.

    Seriously though, there's no way it's useable as it is for anyone at all vulnerable on their own at night.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. Stickman
    Member

    Now on consultation portal:

    https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/design-cycle-walk-grange-road/

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Cheers Stickman.

    Am I hallucinating the design of the Lauder Road/Grange Road junction? They want northbound folk to cycle into oncoming tarffic to access ten metres of segregated path?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. Klaxon
    Member

    Like the similarly shoddy McDonald Rd scheme this is another AECOM outsourced design that seems to be classic UK style white elephant infrastructure that spends money in volumes but doesn't actually provide any benefit to cyclists

    My remarks as follows:

    Lover's Loan
    I welcome the prioritisation and refurbishment of Lover's Loan. A zebra crossing should be included at Hatton Pl otherwise the route will be blocked by parked cars.

    Lauder Road
    The proposed 'cycle zebra' crossing is of a peculiar type and, combined with proximity to the crossroads, will be a high risk junction for collisions between all road users. This junction design also requires northbound cyclists to give way to and cross oncoming traffic on each side of the junction, again creating not removing conflict.

    Tantallon Place
    The use of Toucan crossings on cycle routes without advance cycle detection does not increase amenity to bicycle users as most of the time it will be quicker to cross the crossroads conventionally giving way. The cost/benefit of this crossing will be very low in regards cycle amenity.This junction design also requires southbound cyclists to give way to and cross oncoming traffic on each side of the junction, again creating not removing conflict.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. Klaxon
    Member

    Here's my go at the junction.


    https://i.imgur.com/3rJcVfs.png

    Only two phases: Grange Rd (cars) and Lauder Rd (bikes and peds)

    Lauder Rd closed to through traffic on both sides, apart from Cycles (with fire brigade bollards). Turning area provided as the road is huge.

    Pavement widened on both sides to leave only 4m cycle lane gap

    Ped crossing on east side of junction with additional stop line for right turning cyclists

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. Morningsider
    Member

    Lauder Road is 14m wide! How about segregated cycle lanes along its length and a signalised junction (with early release for cyclists) at Grange Road. This is affordable if you bin the nonsense at Cumin Place/Grange Road. No need to make this difficult, if you can't fit world-class cycling infrastructure in some of Edinburgh's widest and quietest streets then you might as well give up.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. Nelly
    Member

    I have responded in an exasperated manner - as if it will make a blind bit of difference.

    This as well as the Roseburn shambles clarifies that it doesnt matter how many politicians turn up at POP, how many of them go on PfS or other photo ops - they just dont give a rats ass about active travel in this country.

    I pretty much give up..............

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Klaxon

    Plagiarised your ideas and reminded them to take the chicanes off Lovers' Loan.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Morningsider

    The streets are so wide and the housing density so low there that it's one of the few places I feel totally safe cycling in Edinburgh.

    I'll probably get meat-pasted on Mansionhouse Road now.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. Klaxon
    Member

    I'm really alarmed at the Zebra-thingie. Someone driving along Grange Road has six separate points to check for hazards - (on each side) the road exit, the bike crossing and the pedestrian crossing.

    Edit: Hasn't the one at Dalmeny St on Leith Walk, which is of course only a ped zebra, been roundly criticised for being very poorly positioned?

    Lauder Rd is a residential street with only 14 houses on each side of the Grange Rd junction. Take away the rat runners and the hazard at the junction - recognised by the stop lines that exist today - goes away. No need for expensive heavy engineering that might be appropriate on Lothain Rd.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. HankChief
    Member

    No attempt to make it easier to travel East-West...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. chrispaton
    Member

    Maybe I'm missing something but it all seems pretty sensible to me. Grange Road can be busy and so improved crossings make sense, particularly for kids trying to get to Sciennes Primary. The sideroads (Lauder Road and Cumin/Tantallon Place) are quiet and so crossing to the short segregated sections to access the crossings won't be a problem, and this is employed at other places (Barnton Avenue, Rankeillor Street) without a problem. Likewise, the sideroads themselves are so wide that there's no need at all for segregated lanes the whole way along.

    I do agree it would be good to improve east-west provision on Grange Road itself, but that's a substantially bigger project. As stands, the solution proposed would seem to fit the immediate problem that the council are trying to solve.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. Roibeard
    Member

    Unfortunately I've found there to be seriously unpleasant driver aggression on Lauder Road.

    The road is actually too wide to effectively control a lane, and drivers will attempt to squeeze past cyclists too close and too fast (the wide road shouting "open 'er up!").

    Punishment passes for being in a primary position or two abreast are not uncommon, as is overtaking within a few car lengths of Grange Road. Similarly we've been both overtaken and undertaken on the junction itself.

    I know it seems counter intuitive, but this is the exactly the sort of road that cries out for wide segregated cycle lanes on both sides, then the parking, then a much narrow two-way carriageway.

    Of course, it's also a bus route...

    Robert

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. neddie
    Member

    I agree with Roibeard's sentiment, but I think we should be focusing on bigger (more dangerous) things, like segregation on Lothian Rd.

    For the Lauder Rd junction, I would propose two combined cycle/pedestrian zebras, one on the West side (for Northbound cyclists) and one on the East side (for Southbound cyclists).

    With short segregated lead-ins/lead-outs on both sides of Lauder Rd.

    Zebras are self-reinforcing. The more you put in, the more drivers have to concentrate and moderate their speed accordingly.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  25. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Roibeard

    Very interesting. I use Hatton>Tantallon>Cumin>Dick(Ooo-er)>Findhorn>Relugas and never had a problem. Barely ever meet a car in fact.

    @edd1e_h

    Most true. Heading north from town on Lothian Road at 17h30 on a Friday in February is the Ultimate Commuter Challenge. It can be utterly terrifying even for hard core nuts like me.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  26. geordiefatbloke
    Member

    @morningsider What's the thinking behind early release lights for cyclists? I know there was talk about putting one on the Blackford Avenue/West Savile Terrace junction, but there, for example, I think it's a bad idea: at the moment for those heading up the hill if you're setting off from the lights, the cars have plenty of space to overtake as you cross the junction - the issue is further up the hill where the parked cars start and thus the road narrows. Having an early-release light would just move more of the overtaking manoeuvres into this danger zone.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  27. chdot
    Admin

    "Having an early-release light would just move more of the overtaking manoeuvres into this danger zone."

    That's an interesting and valid point.

    But it's not an either or.

    That hill (lots of bikes going to KB) 'deserves' a cycle lane - perhaps even a segregated one!

    Would mean removing some parking of course...

    Presumably that's being looked at as part of Marchmont to KB route plan(?)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  28. neddie
    Member

    @Morningsider

    The consultants told me they were against fully signalised junctions, because they have the effect of attracting traffic to that route, as if it were a main road.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  29. Stickman
    Member

    There will come a point where councillors will have to realise that "affecting traffic" is a necessary part of successful cycle/walking routes and is the only way to change travel choices.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  30. cc
    Member

    The Lauder Road junction is just bizarre. For cycling southbound it's OK. For cycling northbound - WTF?! They want parents and primary school children, heading north to Sciennes Primary School, to cycle right across the immense width of Lauder Road to the wrong side, right by a corner which a bus or car may come sweeping round at any moment? This is *protected infrastructure*?!

    A lot of the car traffic on Lauder Road in the mornings is heading straight north to drop off kids at Sciennes Primary School. Those cars are expected to drive straight across the zig-zag lined bit of a zebra crossing?! Who on earth positions a zebra crossing and a junction mixed up together like this?

    This is woeful, incompetent nonsense. It'll make my northbound journeys on Lauder Road far more dangerous than they currently are. It'll discourage and reduce cycling on Lauder Road. It'll certainly discourage me.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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