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South Central Edinburgh - 20mph

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Started 14 years ago by cb
Latest reply from gembo

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20mph

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cb
Member

Did anyone get a "South Central Edinburgh proposed 20mph speed limit" leaflet through their door today?

PDF

I think you may have to live in the area to have got the leaflet (oh no - giving my location away...). All the 'main' roads are staying at 30 mph. E.g. Melville Drive, Marchment Road, Strathearn Road, etc.

Any suggestions for comments for the feedback section?

I imagine feedback in general could be quite negative. Many people around here only see the pavement between their front gate and their car.

Posted 14 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

Not yet, although I live in that area.

I sort of read that leaflet as saying "on back and side streets where the average speed is already close to 20 mph, we're going to firm that up and spend £100,000 installing signs to tell people so. On busy main roads where the existing limit is 30 mph and the average speed is higher (when there isn't traffic) we're not going to do anything. We'd still like to spend some of our £100,000 on signs to point out to the confused motorist that you can go at 30mph on these streets - if you're able to"

A "typical" journey through the zone (from the junction of death at Cameron Toll, up Dalkeith Road and then through the Meadows to Tollcross) at 30mph would take 4m24s. At 20mph it would take 6m36s. It may a bit of a spurious comparison as it would be nigh impossible to average those speeds in a zone without actually breaking the limit - but what I'm getting at is that in the name of "penalising" the poor motorist 2 or 3 minutes out their drive (which in reality and in traffic would be more like a handful of seconds) you could have a blanket 20 mph zone with all the attendant and disproportional increases in the chance of surviving being hit by a car.

Posted 14 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

"Why this area of Edinburgh?: The Council has recently decided to focus its efforts on promoting cycling in this area. Cycling is already more popular in this part of Edinburgh than anywhere else in Scotland and a 20mph speed limit should help boost this further. It should also help people feel safer making trips on foot."

Is it just me, or is this not going to lead people who oppose it to blame cyclists for it?

I wonder if it would be worth making a case for removing a few streets from the 30mph group? Some of them seem rather badly chosen. NOt to mention the larger question of 'when is a 20mph zone not a 20 mph zone? when it is 30mph!.....................

Posted 14 years ago #
chdot
Admin

At the conference last Saturday, one interesting thing that Cllr. Mackenzie said was that he had got the police here to talk to the police in Portsmouth.

My understanding was that the 20mph zone there was all roads - but perhaps not(?)

Certainly here there have always been two arguments against including 'main' roads - 'the police won't enforce it' and 'Lothian Buses wouldn't like it'.

I don't think the police should be 'allowed' to take that line.

I'm not clear that LB takes such a 'hard line' these days.

While the company (and passengers) obviously want fast(er) journey times, reliability is probably more valuable.

While there is a belief that 'buses hold up the traffic', clearly the opposite is true - particularly at 'rush' hour.

So it needs to be clear what the purpose of 20mph area/zones is.

Obviously it's about 'road safety' - better KSI figures. But presumably it's also about persuading people it's 'safe' to cycle/walk too.

It may well be that a few more 'sticks' are needed to dissuade people from using their cars - e.g. lower speeds on arterial roads.

In which case 'the council' - in this case the politicians - need to be more explicit/bold.

Of course some carrots would help. I'm sure a quality cycle corridor will be fine if you happen to use that route, but regular/any maintenance of red/white paint + road surfaces would be a start...

Posted 14 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Having looked at the leaflet again I realise how pointless/timid the proposals are.

I suspect most people on here would be happy if the whole area was 20mph. But we 'know' that's not 'possible'.

Perhaps there could be a concerted campaign for Melville Drive to be 20mph.

Wider cycle lanes, no parking and pedestrian/cycle crossings that changed when the buttons were pressed would make it 'self-enforcing'.

Posted 14 years ago #
cb
Member

On the surface it feels like this 20mph proposal won't make a huge difference - the fast roads are unaffected and most of the other roads traffic is slower anyway. Cars will probably still exceed 20mph, but I guess overall the speeds will be a bit lower.

However I guess this is a foot-in-the-door for the council. Get a fairly easy trial zone up and running and then it becomes easier to roll it out further.

I think this is a bit of an (unofficial) council strategy for this kind of thing (e.g. closing a road at one end). People might not like it, so tell them it is just going to be a wee trial. By the end of the trial people are used to whatever the change is and actually quite like it.

Why does it have to be 30mph or 20mph. Can 25mph not be used on some of the faster roads? That might seem more palatable to the general public and could actually bring traffic speeds down to 30mph (from somewhere above 30mph).

Posted 14 years ago #
Kim
Member

Take a map of Edinburgh, lay a clear sheet over it, plot the locations of the ~~accidents~~ crashes over the last few years, take away the map, and what do you see? The outline of the "arterial route" which are being left out of the 20mph zone, if the proposal isn't changed, it is set up to fail. The roads which need the lower speed limit are the ones with the highest accident rates.

Why does it have to be 30mph or 20mph? Well people will tend to accede the which ever limit about about 5mph. Here is something to think about:

Hit by a car at 20 mph, 3% of pedestrians will be killed
Hit by a car at 30 mph, 20% of pedestrians will be killed
Hit by a car at 35 mph, 50% of pedestrians will be killed
Hit by a car at 40 mph, 90% of pedestrians will be killed

Now why reduce the speed limit to 20mph?

Posted 14 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

But hang on, getting to your destination (i.e. the queue of traffic ahead) 30 seconds earlier is worth the people dying surely?

(I never understand why the point isn't put that bluntly to people who whinge about 20mph limits, just ask them, so you're happy with more people dying ont he roads than need to? - you always get people rabbiting on about, well we might as well have men with red flags in front of cars again - the desperate last throw of the dice of someone who knows the argument is lost)

Posted 14 years ago #
cb
Member

But at 20mph I'd have to drive everywhere in SECOND GEAR and this would make my car PUMP OUT MUCH MORE CO2.

That's also what people say.

I still think a 25mph limit has merit though.

Posted 14 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

Yeah, it's funny how these folk become eco-warriors at this point....

Posted 14 years ago #
Min
Member

"Is it just me, or is this not going to lead people who oppose it to blame cyclists for it? "

Huh, probably. But those people will just speed anyway like normal.

However I think it is a good idea in principle, perhaps this will just be the start of a wider application of a 20mph speed limit. You have to start somewhere. :-)

"But hang on, getting to your destination (i.e. the queue of traffic ahead) 30 seconds earlier is worth the people dying surely?"

Well yes it is. Lets face it, most drivers get away with driving dangerously because they mostly somehow avoid killing or hurting other people, therefore what they are doing can't be dangerous can it? It is only dangerous if someone dies. And even then it isn't dangerous, merely slightly careless. Councils use this logic to refuse lollipops or pedestrian crossings because a road isn't dangerous until enough people have been killed. Plus even if a driver does kill someone they only get a small fine and a couple of points on their licence. Definately worth it.

Posted 14 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

I think one of the issues is that the majority of motor vehicle drivers will have utterly no idea what their average speed is, particularly across town. If they see a red and white circular sign with a "30" in it, they presume that's the speed they have to be driving at. If they're not driving at 30, there's a problem and they're goign too slow and that by driving at 30 in a 30 zone then it follows that their average speed on that journey must be 30.

Cyclists "know" the hard way and from experience that this is not the case. We know that we can quite easily get up to 30 mph in favourable conditions (grade / tail wind / recumbentraption) and that we can cruise along happily at 20mph. But we also know that regardless of what speed we can get up to and can cruise at that lights and slowing and stopping for junctions and traffic makes it something to achieve a 15mph average speed across town. We also have a nice feature on our speedos that tells us exactly what this figure is - something lacking from most cars.

So if you say to the motoring lobby "I'm cutting the speed limit from 30 to 20" then they interpret that as "I'm going to make you take 50% longer to get anywhere". For lack of my own research data I don't know what the precise answer is, but in town and in traffic that just doesn't hold - it's traffic and slowing and stopping for junctions and lights that would seem to be the major factor determining the average speed and therefore how long it takes you to get across town.

The council needs to gather some good data and say "we're going to put a blanket 20 mph zone in town, but it will only add another 10% time on to your journey and it will reduce the deaths from people being knocked down by xx%".

Posted 14 years ago #
wingpig
Member

Would some modelling or demonstration showing that drivers would spend an average of thirty-eight or whatever fewer seconds waiting at lights on an average eight-minute journey across the Restricted Zone help?

Again, we all know that the best way to avoid stopping at lights too often is to ease off when you see a red light in the distance so that the time spent stationary in a queue waiting for it to change is reduced (if it's a junction where you know it's difficult to filter up to the stop-box, such as at the east end of Melville Drive in the evening) but I can feel cars assembling impatiently behind me should I have the temerity to not rashly accelerate towards a queue of stationary traffic when I'm driving.

I presume that there'll be some re-sequencing of the lights on the route, though also presume it won't include anything as sensible as letting the new right-turn filters escape before the oncoming traffic advances? Most right-turn filters I've encountered in the city seem designed only to allow one or two vehicles through after the bulk of the right-turn-blocking straight-over traffic has been through.

Posted 14 years ago #
gembo
Member

The 20mph limit should definitely be in place on all south side roads from October through to March. Firstly, in October, the students arrive and they are at university to read books but also to learn independent living skills such as how to cross roads on their own [I was very bad at this until I left university actually, but then my judgement may have been impaired pharmaceutically etc]. Secondly, it is dark.

But hang on, getting to your destination (i.e. the queue of traffic ahead) 30 seconds earlier is worth the people dying surely?

I think this might be the way of tackling the insanity of driving and tackling people on why using their cars is the same as invading Iraq. The only reason we are allowed to go out each day at the wheel of the mass weapons of destruction is to create an ever increasing market for oil.

Whenever I try to argue with people about this in a serious way I come over all self righteous. For instance - for an average of ten minutes longer in bed in the morning- all the parents in Balerno drive their children to school - some live up country and would be 30 mins walk then 30 mins back so I can see the need for vehicle [could be bike tho if no cars on roads]. Some live 30 secs away but get in the queue as it is raining. It would be quicker for them to walk. People love their cars and see them as an extension of themselves. They go mental if you touch them. Maybe I am the same with my bike? But actually I would give people a shot if they wanted to try it [one person at work liked it so much she bought one, the new version with the correct brakes, now I am jealous]

The other day a car overtook me in the cycling lane just before a left turn - I was going straight ahead - the car was turning left. The driver actually waited for me, realising what he had done. Always good to finish on an exception if poss.

Posted 14 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

Always good to finish on an exception if poss.

I like to have to try and have at least one positive interaction with a motorist a day, be it forgiveness to the driver who does something silly and acknowledges it (like the car across West Maitland Place traffic at ight angles that got caught out trying to do U-turn to get at a parking space on the other side. "Sorry mate", says he. "No problem" says I, "I'm not in a rush" - even though it was raining and cold and windy), be it letting a bus out (after all, it's going to act as my own personal windbreak) or waving a car through to turn (why not? it's not like I'm that desperate to get to work 15 seconds earlier) when you could have made them wait for you. It gives a slight warm feeling inside to help combat the winter cold, a sort of "if I had been in a car, I probably wouldn't have done that" moment.

Posted 14 years ago #
Arellcat
Moderator

I'm currently reading Tom Vanderbilt's book, traffic, subtitled Why We Drive the Way We Do, and What It Says About Us. It's absolutely fascinating.

Posted 14 years ago #
Kirst
Member

It is, isn't it? I read it earlier in the year and loved it.

I'm currently reading Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender which is equally fascinating.

Posted 14 years ago #
cb
Member

"I'm currently reading Tom Vanderbilt's book, traffic, subtitled Why We Drive the Way We Do, and What It Says About Us. It's absolutely fascinating."

Seconded.

Posted 14 years ago #
Arellcat
Moderator

On Longstone Road this morning, you'd be lucky to manage 5mph with all the traffic, two stretches of roadworks (TIE, of course) and a set of temporary traffic lights.

Posted 14 years ago #
holisticglint
Member

the majority of motor vehicle drivers will have utterly no idea what their average speed is

Excellent point - Maybe a better approach will be to keep the signs the same but covertly have all the MOT stations in Edinburgh adjust speedos to slow everyone down. It is possible that journey times would actually drop within a few months...

Posted 14 years ago #
ruggtomcat
Member

Im with Kim, Its pointless to change just the small side streets, you really need to chill the city centre traffic out, and if people realise that they *cant* go so fast, maybe they will be in less of a hurry. I hurry to leave, not hurry to get there. weird word that, hurry. hurry hurry hurry. Its true though that its good to have a small step to get people used to the idea.

Posted 14 years ago #
chdot
Admin

New York to find that Twenty is Plenty

"
Rod King, founder of 20’s Plenty For Us, said:

“We know that lower speeds on residential streets in continental Europe are the norm and that our 30 mph limits in the UK are an exception. Our move towards a more civilised sharing of our roads where people live, walk, cycle and shop through lower speed limits is gaining momentum, and it is great to see how this is being observed from the US.
"

Posted 14 years ago #
LaidBack
Member

holisticglint have all the MOT stations in Edinburgh adjust speedos to slow everyone down. It is possible that journey times would actually drop within a few months...

Could be right. If you consider the whole interaction of cars with buses, traffic lights and each other.

We know that dropping speeds on motorways avoids 'push-pull' type jams...

Posted 14 years ago #
cb
Member

I've heard ~18mph quoted as being the speed that provides maximum traffic throughput. That doesn't necessarily relate to shorter journey times though.

Anyone else heard of this 18mph figure? Or can provide a reference?

Posted 14 years ago #
wingpig
Member

It might take some re-education/conditioning to get drivers to be happy with relatively uninterrupted progress at moderate speeds instead of BRRRUMBRRUMWHEEEFASTFAST frequently punctuated by waiting at lights and in queues.

Posted 14 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"instead of BRRRUMBRRUMWHEEEFASTFAST frequently punctuated by waiting at lights and in queues"

Indeed - and 'they' say fuel is expensive...

Posted 14 years ago #
Arellcat
Moderator

Last time I did a journey by car was to Edinburgh University, so not a heavy-duty cross-town thing. I had my GPS and it recorded an average speed of about 26mph over the four miles or thereabouts; but it was also 7pm. I've found that 18-22mph is pretty much the average speed of a motor vehicle during the daytime.

That didn't stop someone yesterday overtaking me just before I cycled through a stretch of roadworks, and didn't stop someone this morning trying to overtake me on a left-hand curve with parked cars coming up on my side and an approaching car.

Has anyone else wondered if the change from BST has made motorists more impatient and aggressive?

Posted 14 years ago #
Kim
Member

Should arterial routes be included in the 20mph speed limit pilot? I think they should, we need to push this point!

Posted 14 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"we need to push this point!"

YES!

20-zones@edinburgh.gov.uk

20mph Consultation
FREEPOST NAT 18051
Edinburgh EH1 1BR

Online

Further information on the proposals can be found at

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/consultations

Public exhibitions

You can view information at Newington Library from
15 – 29 November inclusive. The Library is open from 10am – 8pm Monday to Thursday; 10am – 5pm Friday; 9am – 5pm Saturday and 1pm – 5pm Sunday.

Drop-in sessions

Our staff will be available to answer questions about the proposals at St Catharine’s Argyll Church Hall, Grange Rd, from 5pm – 8pm on Wednesday 1 and Thursday 2 December.

Posted 14 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Not directly related to 30/20, but interesting -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit

Posted 14 years ago #

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