CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Innocent Path

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  1. Iain McR
    Member

    Anyone else notice, or know what the fluorescent marks on the innocent path are for ?

    They appeared over the weekend or on Monday, noticed them on the way home last night, thought I saw about half a dozen or so, but while whizzing down there this morning I could only see 2 or 3 (possibly saw less due to whizzing).

    Just wondering..

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. dougal
    Member

    Didn't notice any last night but to be fair was limited visibility even with good lights.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. amir
    Member

    Something else new on the Innocent. A whole series of lines across the path presumably to slow cyclists down. They are made of brick or similar so harder wearing (presumably) than rumble strips and are slightly higher than the path surface. There's quite a lot of them placed between the Milton underpass and (east of) Duddingston Park South.

    My first impression was defensive - they are uncomfortably bumpy, overly numerous and made me feel as if the council doesn't really want me as a cyclist on the Innocent path. That's added to the frequent threat of glass and dogs roaming free or on extended leads (I had to stop twice for these). It might be okay on a wee cut through, but the Innocent is a major through route for cyclists and is about 3 miles long. I might divert onto the road more often now.

    Anyway - perhaps it's okay really?

    Posted 9 months ago #
  4. Dave
    Member

    There are some bricks on NEPN at Craigleith, but despite initially hating them, I quickly realised that I'd filtered them out subconsciously. I don't go any slower or really even notice them now.

    Not sure if these ones you mention are more severe. The only way to have a significant impact on cyclists is for them to be quite violent and uncomfortable (NEPN ones aren't).

    I'm inclined to think like speed bumps on the road, it's just one of these things to put up with.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  5. DrAfternoon
    Member

    The NEPN ones are in sensible moderation, but there are so many on the furthest east (Niddry/Brunstane) section of the Innocent that I have to wonder if someone got their sums wrong. There must be at least ten sets on the 800m section.

    There are certainly more pedestrians from connecting residential streets there, so they might be sensible to some extent, but the number of them feels pretty insulting.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  6. Iain McR
    Member

    yes - totally agree - I counted 16 sets last time, plus a few solitary ones.

    Speeding cyclists are not an issue on that section. A pointless waste of money.

    I've actually stopped using that section of the Innocent now and cut up onto the A1 instead on my way to work.

    Genius - drive cyclists off cycle-paths and onto the roads.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  7. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Speeding cyclists are not an issue on that section. A pointless waste of money.

    It comes from the same school of design where you have to install railings wherever a cycle path terminates at a road, thus inconveniencing every cyclist.

    It might be interesting to see if a desire line develops around the speed bumps.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  8. Vez
    Member

    The new brick lines on the Innocent didn't slow me down this morning (so if that's the aim, they don't work! Or not with this morning's headwind anyway) but I agree they are annoying. There is some new play equipment going in as well - maybe there's some 'local improvements money' and this is what they've done with it? I would be interested to know what the evidence is for there being an issue with cyclists going too fast along that path?

    Posted 9 months ago #
  9. DrAfternoon
    Member

    Perhaps someone figured out that destroying all smooth surfaces is cheaper than fixing potholes? Perception management.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  10. nobrakes
    Member

    It's a cunning plan by fat bike manufacturers.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  11. PS
    Member

    Unfortunately for all concerned, the best way to smooth the ride over cobbles/bricks/pave/etc is to put the power down and ride over them at pace - eg, Paris-Roubaix, or the speed bumps on the Barnton path betwixt the golf courses.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  12. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    It's a cunning plan by fat bike manufacturers.

    Unless they're more prominent than the worse end of the normal road defect spectrum (i.e. about ten centimeters) then everyone will just ride straight over them at normal speeds.

    I have a suspended seat post and short travel suspension forks because that's what I've found I need to ride at a decent speed in safety and comfort on Edinburgh roads.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  13. amir
    Member

    It did used to be one of the rare bits of smooth tarmac in Edinburgh. Perhaps a non-cyclist thought that was unfair.

    It would be interesting to hear what pushchair/pram users make of it. Plus people who trip over them walking.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  14. crowriver
    Member

    Haven't ridden that section of path for quite a long time. Can't say this will make me any keener to use it...

    Posted 9 months ago #
  15. amir
    Member

    There are 28 sets in that short section. Some of 3 some single. 28!!!

    It would be great to see the evidence for this being a good use of public money. What is the expected reduction in hooligan cycling (minimal?) against the inconvenience etc

    Posted 9 months ago #
  16. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Just a thought, but it might be an attempt to prevent scrambler misuse? Was there not a fatality here a few years back?

    Posted 9 months ago #
  17. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    it might be an attempt to prevent scrambler misuse

    You can ride an enduro bike over pretty much anything.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  18. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Yeah, you and I know that, but does the Council?

    Posted 9 months ago #
  19. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Ah, fair point. I'll report it as a guerrilla road repair to Clarence.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  20. Iain McR
    Member

    just out of interest, are we able to ask to see the justification for such works or even the costs ?

    Posted 9 months ago #
  21. lapislazuli
    Member

    I would think that it is linked with the new play areas that they are developing - not sure what the latest is but you can read more here http://www.elgt.org.uk/uploads/Projects/Magdalene%20Glen/Magdalene%20Glen%20Playpark.pdf

    Posted 9 months ago #
  22. crowriver
    Member

    "I'll report it as a guerrilla road repair to Clarence."

    Good idea.

    Sincerely hope this didn't come out of the cycling budget.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  23. amir
    Member

    @lapislazuli thanks for this, looks a fun scheme for the kids.

    Looks like there will be thermoplastic anti-skid coating applied as well.

    The NCN1 will be going through a full-on playground. Whether this warrants shaking my teeth out every other metre, I don't know. I think kids running across the path, combined with the current dog and glass hazards, are enough to slow down sensible folk. Less sensible folk won't be slowed down at all.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  24. crowriver
    Member

    Just remembered I was planning to head out to Newcraighall at some point in the near future, to visit one of the outlets which has abandoned the city centre. Better go on the Pashley Pronto, the beefy tyres will ease the juddering as I head over the setts...

    Posted 9 months ago #
  25. DrAfternoon
    Member

    They could restore balance by giving default green to bikes instead of cars on the road crossings. I can dream.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  26. crowriver
    Member

    TBH it's probably more comfy than average Edinburgh road surfaces. Certainly can't be any worse than the unrepaired craterfest that is much of Leith Walk. Dogs, glass and small kids are small beer compared to urban tank 4x4s driven by people not paying any attention.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  27. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Hello,

    Just to let you know that the surface of NCR1 has been damaged. I don't know if it's locals taking matters into their own hands or some creative work on the part of the contractors building the nearby play park, but some mono-block has been crudely inserted into the asphalt surface at Magdalene - nearest lamp post is MVC05.

    The work has been poorly done - a channel has been cut which is too wide, mono-blocks of poor quality have been dropped in without mortar and loose tarmac or possibly even Quick Mac patted in below the level of either asphalt or the blocks to 'seal' the gap. See attached photo for an idea of the workmanship involved. This work won't last the course of next winter and will quickly become dangerous to cycles and their riders as the blocks come loose.

    The correct design of cycle infrastructure is set out in Local Transport Note 2/08 (the Scottish Government were contributors) and the correct use of tactile paving to warn of hazards is set out in Section 4.2 of the DoT document Inclusive Mobility.
    Whether this is guerrilla engineering or a botch job this is a hazard in the making and should be removed from this busy cycle highway.

    Thanks in advance,

    IWRATS

    (Was guessing at right design stuff, bad boy that I am.)

    Posted 9 months ago #
  28. Vez
    Member

    I emailed ELGT and got a very quick response from the Council. I asked what the rationale was for the brick strips, and what consultation there had been with path users. Here's what they said:

    Yes we have installed small blocks raised by 20mm to make cyclists aware that they are at an intersection this along with a change of surface and stencils is make the cyclist and pedestrians more aware of each other
    During an extensive consultation period which lasted over 1and a half years one of the main issues of local residents raised was the speed and inconsideration of cyclist . The consultation under taken was 1. letter drop to all residents . Staff meet people on the street in the park to make them aware of the project and fill the survey , poster were put up in the glen asking for opinions via a web page or letter .
    Stage 2 was to take the information and design the park this was then taken to residents and posted within the park . We attended public meetings where view on the equipment and other issues within the park were raised . one of the major issues raised at these meeting was the speed and inconsideration of some cyclists . We then designed in measures to make users aware of each other . Plan 3 was finally agreed and circulated to residents .
    Although this is part of the national cycleway now it was before this a path within a park and was surfaced approx 25 to 28 years ago . It is a mixed usage used path providing a safe route for school children going to and from Brunstane primary from Bingham and very busy connection from Magdalene / Bingham to Asda and fort shopping centre these measures are designed to make all users aware of each other

    Posted 9 months ago #
  29. Vez
    Member

    So, lots of consultation with 'local residents', not much (and none that I saw) with other users of the path. Someone posted something really sensible from CEC (I think) a while ago about Porty prom which I thought seemed very balanced and evidence-based - acknowledging that a perception of 'speeding cyclists' and a sense of 'near misses' by pedestrian users is an issue, but also pointing out that there had been no reported accidents to pedestrians on the prom and lots on the High St. They don't seem to have taken the same approach here...

    Posted 9 months ago #
  30. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    There are some right oafs bomb down the Innocent like they're on Stage Six somewhere west of Dijon but this is not the answer and I think we'd know if bicyclists had been consulted.

    Adding a playpark plus amateur speedbumps is not a solution to a complex problem,

    Posted 9 months ago #

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