Sounds great.
Might sound almost negative, but the best thing is that you haven't been asked to do other things instead.
Whenever you move on to other activities, it looks like it will be well embedded in PS (and increasingly the rest of the UK).
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
Operation Close Pass in Edinburgh
(630 posts)-
Posted 7 years ago #
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Now happening in Kirkcaldy!
Posted 7 years ago # -
Phone call this afternoon from police officer dealing with the close pass I reported a while ago - this one:
They spoke to the driver, but decided not to push for prosecution. He explained that this was due to no front camera footage and the fact that I admitted swearing and gesturing (waving in a "no, stay back" fashion) at the driver before they overtook.
Posted 7 years ago # -
does seem like the
barriersrequirements for prosecution get ever higher.Posted 7 years ago # -
Next time someone threatens me with a knife on the street I'll be careful to only smile politely and use Queen's English, I didn't realise gesturing in self defence makes assault a-ok.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@frenchy
He explained that this was due to no front camera footage and the fact that I admitted swearing and gesturing (waving in a "no, stay back" fashion) at the driver before they overtook.
Two utterly ridiculous - and, frankly, made up - reasons.
* Swearing did not cause this.
* Gesturing made it an even worse overtake - because he'd been warned he was too close, but passed anyway.
* And a front camera is unnceessary as laws of physics tell us that, if he passed the back of you closely, he passed you closely.
It sounds like the police officer is just another anti-cyclist bigot. (Of which there are many within the police force.)
Posted 7 years ago # -
No swearing in the section of video posted (in compliance with forum rules?) I can just hear frenchy say No.
Does look like a classic close pass with added cars parked in the cycle lane forcing the cyclist to take primary.
I thought the two options the police were using in Operation Close Pass involved either education or if education did not work prosecution.
I did not think there was a third option of seeking to dismantle the case against Operation Close Pass.? Surely operation close pass does not involve perfect footage and immaculate behaviour from the cyclist? After all, there is only going to be some education in most cases?
I also thought we were encouraged to send in footage? This footage is presumably fairly typical of what a close pass looks like? I would have thought Operation Close Pass would therefore involve showing it to the driver, saying that was a close pass do you understand and can you learn? If so no prosecution? So feedback would be we educated the driver and he/she accepts his/her behaviour does not follow the Highway Code. So we are not prosecuting. However, if the same driver appears again then maybe we will prosecute? Not what @frenchy was told as that would appear to be victim blaming?
Posted 7 years ago # -
@Gembo - I definitely don't say "No" in that video ;) The driver was "educated" in this instance. The officer also explicitly encouraged me to report any further incidents.
@gibbo - I agree. There was an oncoming car, and parked cars on both sides of the road; overtaking me was completely unacceptable. The de'il's advocate in me is happy to accept that the police are looking to focus on easy wins for now, and I'm mostly just glad the driver was spoken to.
The cynic in me also wonders if the deadline for submitting the notice of intention to prosecute passed before the police officer got around to dealing with this (I left it fairly tight timewise).
Posted 7 years ago # -
@DomD (or anyone else) do you know if each force will be rolling out the operation with their own tweaks or is it going to be standard nationwide?
For instance will the simplified reporting be implemented in all regions? Or will we still have to book an apointment via 101 to have an officer come and take details for an incident for which there is no chance of prosecution? ie the rider is the only witness available.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@acsimpson by each Force do you mean legacy Scottish Police force areas? If so the 8 legacy forces are now 14 divisions. The Op Close Pass model for Scotland should follow a national standard. With regards to reporting we still have 8 different systems running. An upgrade is ongoing so I'm going to be working with divisions to create local solutions until the national platform is implemented.
The ultimate goal is to create a national platform to allow any road user to upload footage and make a report similar to Op Snap in North Wales.
I'm going to a national (uk) Op Close Pass meeting in September so hopefully I'll pick up some ideas from other forces as well.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
Fife Police (@FifePolice)
08/08/2017, 10:40 am
P DRPU carrying out #OpClosePass checks in Glenrothes with our community colleagues #teamoftheweek #OpParamount @LeslieBikeShophttp://pic.twitter.com/IAYmcDDjtb
"
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
RoadPolicingScot (@polscotrpu)
08/08/2017, 11:22 am
The message is simple. Give space or wait if you have to overtake a cyclist on the road ahead of you."
Posted 7 years ago # -
Thanks Dom,
yes, you are right I did mean to divisions rather than the forces. The reason I asked is that I reported an inteligence only incident in Fife through the contact us form and was asked to make an appointment through 101 to allow an officer to come out and take a report from me in person.
As I don't have any witnesses or video of the incident (a driver deliberately forcing me to stop on a roundabout) it would be a waste of both the officer's and my time to do so. I also wouldn't have much to add over the 3 or 4 paragraphs I put into the contact form. It's good to hear that in time all divisions will be using the same reporting tool. The ultimate goal sounds good but in the meantime it would be nice to be able to make reports where there is no chance of prosecution and little chance of an educational visit without the need to make an appointment (as now happens in Edinburgh).
Posted 7 years ago # -
@acsimpson
I had a situation earlier in the year. It dragged a wee bit. Certainly to the point where I though it would be a waste of everyones' time.
A very persistent young officer repeatedly assured me it wouldn't be. We eventually met. I repeated my story (transpired it hadn't been properly recorded at the station)
It was an inconvenience. I was over it by then, but, if it was important enough to walk into a station and report it initially, I though I really should.
Eventually )I think the officer's shift pattern became an issue) he tracked down the vehicle and the driver.
A profuse apology was offered to me via the officer which I was happy to accept.
Maybe, a knock on the door some 4 months after the incident gave the driver a wee fright. That things are pursued. That he was lucky he was only getting a warning this time? If he doesn't act like that again behind the wheel, thats a result IMHO.
Posted 7 years ago # -
On the subject brought up by Frenchy of front/rear cameras, or both: what products would people recommend for this sort of thing? I have a GoPro clone which I can fit to my bike (big, ugly mount on the headtube - I hate helmet cam footage) but it's a faff, as is remembering to keep it charged and so forth. Are there any good products on the market - or is it a case of picking the least-worst (bit still pricey) of what's available and developing a modus operandi that you can trust yourself to adhere to?
Posted 7 years ago # -
Are there any good products on the market - or is it a case of picking the least-worst (bit still pricey) of what's available and developing a modus operandi that you can trust yourself to adhere to?
I think it's mostly the latter, but it probably depends on what exactly you want. For me, the Fly6 is definitely good, though. My main gripe is the fact that you need a soldering iron to replace the battery. The front camera version (Fly12) looks like it's also the best of the bunch, but is somehow more than twice the price of the Fly6.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@chdot
Even this
RoadPolicingScot (@polscotrpu)
08/08/2017, 11:22 am
The message is simple. Give space or wait if you have to overtake a cyclist on the road ahead of you.Entrenches and encourages bad behaviour.
That's because it uses the phrase "have to."
I realise that, to most people, this sounds like nit-picking, but if you study behavioural economics, you'll understand how seemingly small word choices create very different impressions.
And, when they come from authority sources (like the police), can significantly impact behaviour.
So, the message isn't "simple," it's wrong.
Posted 7 years ago # -
The important bit and to be fair, the primary bit, of that message is "The message is simple. Give space or wait"
I don't have a problem with that.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Interesting semantics as you could read have to as And if you really have to get in front/overtake but you can also read it as And it is your entitlement to get in front whenever you can
So linking this to driver behaviours
I feel I am noticing more drivers hanging back these days. Obviously, I also notice every whanger who speeds past to then stop at lights to allow me to filter with great delight.
I also feel I have been developing my satirical, please you go in front you impatient man who has just encroached on my space at the lights, please you take the lane if you have to, I will see you in a minute. I do this with a sweeping motion of the right arm, Palm tilted towards the sky a little.
The other day I stayed behind the car in poll position at the Old ABC junction on Lothian road. This has four lanes but only one of them has the filter to go straight ahead. When it came on the car did not move. Hence, it would have been more helpful if I had plonked myself in front of him as he would have spotted me moving off.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"That's because it uses the phrase "have to." "
Perhaps a sub-ideal choice of words.
I take 'have to' as meaning that realistically the car/driver is expecting/able to go considerably faster once past the cyclist.
Police advice is basically 'you MUST wait until it is 'safe' and - importantly - driver is able to pass at a 'reasonable' distance (currently/vaguely about 1.5m).
A problem 'we' frequently encountered is the impatient idiot who MUST GET PAST just so that the can catch up with the 'traffic'. 'We' stick to the same pace and (often) catch them up again.
These sort of drivers are actually a danger to more than just cyclists. It is perhaps unfortunate that cyclists and "close passing" are one way of identifying them.
Posted 7 years ago # -
The important bit and to be fair, the primary bit, of that message is "The message is simple. Give space or wait"
The important bit is the bit that has the greatest impact on cyclist safety.
There are 2 messages within the message. One that promotes safety, and one that promotes impatient/entitled driving.
I've no idea which will have the greater impact. It could go either way.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@chdot
Police advice is basically 'you MUST wait until it is 'safe'
It's also, "When you're behind a cyclist, they're slowing you down and you need to overtake them."
i.e. It's reinforcing the impatient, "cyclists are slowing down traffic" trope.
And that message is coming from the police. So it has even more weight.
The fact is, the words "have to" have no place in this message. What % of overtakes "have to" happen?
Posted 7 years ago # -
You see similar driver behaviour out in the empty roads of west Lothian of a Sunday morning. Some considerate drivers give you tons of room by going across the middle line. Sometimes when they should not but I much prefer this to those who do not wish to cross the mid line but do wish to pass the cyclist. Voila Le punishment pass
Posted 7 years ago # -
@gibbo
Could you reword it the way you think it should be written?
(I am struggling a bit here to see how it could be written without implying an overtake is 'necessary')
Posted 7 years ago # -
All noted. If anyone would like to PM me some 'suggested' messages you would like to see tweeted on this topic as we move forward that would be appreciated.
Obviously twitter is immediate and often is a retweet of something that is ongoing. Sadly I don't have the luxury to mull and debate every word from the perspective of every reader so therefore some 'stock' phrases would be useful.
Apologies if anyone is upset by the content. I said at the beginning we won't always get it right, but we are talking about cycling safety which is a step forward.
I look forward to your help and thanks again for your ongoing support.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I'd just change 'have' to 'wish'.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Trixie, that was my first thought too - gives the driver agency again (rather than being forced to overtake by outside pressure = "have to").
Wonder if some tweets about Primary position would be useful ("Cyclist in Primary position? Don't overtake - it's not safe to do so.", with a link to an explanation of what Primary position is...)?
Posted 7 years ago # -
Another close pass going up the hill at King's Buildings. I didn't swear or wave my hand this time, and my front camera was working, so...
Posted 7 years ago # -
Not sure I would say that it is always unsafe to overtake if I am in primary position. I sometimes just feel the situation calls for the driver to give me plenty of room and fully move into the other lane. For example, when I am in the inside lane of a dual carriageway and I want the person overtaking to fully go in the outside lane or when I am passing parked cars.
Posted 7 years ago # -
There's more than one way to interpret most phrases. Especially if it has to be crammed into 140 characters.
I think the combination of "If" with "have to" makes it clear that there is no requirement or entitlement to overtake. It isn't saying that overtaking is inevitable (although we know it is unless the infrastructure prevents it). In fact I prefer it to using wish wish as that suggests to me that the drivers desire is the most important factor.
I suppose it could be turned around to something along the lines of "Don't overtake a cyclist without leaving ample space".
Dom D, I'm glad you're getting the message out there and these tweets are a huge improvement on some of the messages which were going out before your time.
Posted 7 years ago #
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