@Dom D need to be careful with social media 'messages' -
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
Operation Close Pass in Edinburgh
(630 posts)-
Posted 7 years ago #
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@chdot
Jeez oh, I thought drivers v cyclists was enough without throwing the helmet debate into the mix.
The joys of a national account! Roll on my social media training course in July!
I'll feed back accordingly.
Posted 7 years ago # -
By @Frenchy -
"Would be delighted to do so, but I'm afraid I don't know where the right circles are.
Tweet at Midlothian police?
Email someone? (Who?)
Go into Bonnyrigg station?
EDIT: All of the above?"Good questions.
My feeling is that it helps that the 'pilot' is in Ed where there are above average nos of people on bikes - and vocal 'campaigners'.
Most people on CCE live/work here but we have ppl from EL, MidL, Fife and west of Ed too.
In addition plenty of 'us' visit the surrounding areas - not least because (in general) they are nice places to visit/ride.
So maybe start on Twitter/FB with local councils, tourist orgs, community councils in places you visit and 'hope you'll get an #OpClosePass scheme'.
Local politicians too - esp in run up to #GE2017.
Maybe add in @MathesonMichael when you reply to positive responses.
( https://twitter.com/mathesonmichael/status/778562893025468416 )
Posted 7 years ago # -
Dom D
Many thanks for your good work - it is very much appreciated.
Cheers
ColinPosted 7 years ago # -
"
RoadPolicingScot (@polscotrpu)
12/05/2017, 09:35
A lot of comments regarding #OpClosePass. We don't want it to be a car vs. bike debate. We all SHARE the road & this needs to be done responsiblyhttp://pic.twitter.com/NTK25oPXR7
"
Posted 7 years ago # -
As a regular rider in Mid and East Lothian I totally see the need but this is where you guys come in by applying the right sort of pressure in the right circles?
I may write to my MP and local councillors to see if they have heard of this.
Posted 7 years ago # -
It wasn't a close pass as such last night it was that other thing. I was in primary in the green lane on Liberton Road approaching Good's Corner, lady in a shabby people carrier was in the outside lane looking to turn left. So she just drove her car sideways at me hoping to push me out of the way.
I declined to go sideways so she stopped just before making contact. Her passenger was screaming at her as she stopped straddling both lanes and got an earful from me. Her English wasn't good but she indicated by hand gestures that she expected me to get out of her way. In the gutter or on the pavement.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@Iwrats, sometimes in the situation you describe I go ultra sarcastic, get off my bike, remove it from the road and do a big bow as in please take the highway your majesty.
There are some people driving around Edinburgh who appear never to have read the Highway Code or indeed to understand junctions, road signs etc. They are unconsciously incompetent. I am not sure if they are worse than the other drivers who know what they are doing is wrong but do not care. The consciously incompetent? These are the drivers Dominic is going to fine for me. Consciously competent is good and then I think unconsciously competent is supposed to be the highest level whereby you are in the institute of advanced motoring and everything you do is correct without having to think. I am dubious about this last category but it is just a theory around mastery of learning. In practice they want you in the gutter
Posted 7 years ago # -
@domD can i add my thanks and appreciation - i'm sure this isn't going to win you guys a lot of friends (at least at first) but as the mother of 2 enthusiastic cyclists - one of whom is approaching an age to cycle by herself to school etc - I'm really grateful for everything you can do to make drivers more aware.
I hope you can also raise awareness/driving standards/knowledge of the road among your colleagues as well - this would make a huge difference.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@gembo
Nice attitude. I think her vehicular supremacist ideas were learned elsewhere. I'll try the am-dram approach next time. There will be one.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@iwrats, fairly sure this driv r has driv n at me on wrong side of road as she spotted a parking spot to my left and the fact I had right of way was of marginal interest and so was the fact she needed to drive over me to get to the space. Curiously she felt this was my problem/fault. Imagine other normal drivers have had issues with her. She is exceptional and sadly she is many (men, women, gender fluid)
Posted 7 years ago # -
Deeply disappointed with the Police Scotland comments recommending people wear helmets. The close pass approach is based on evidence and was developed by the West Midlands Police after they have carried out an analysis of collision data.
There is no evidence from anywhere in the world that encouraging the use of cycle helmets reduces the rate of collisions involving motor vehicles. There is clear evidence from repeatable experiments by Ian Walker and other that wearing a cycle helmet increase the rate of close passing. Therefore cycle helmets can NOT be regarded as a means of making the roads safer. Indeed the scientific evidence from places where the wearing of helmets has been made compulsory has shown that they make the road less safe for cycling.
Realistically, if we want safer roads we need to adopt a Dutch style Sustainable Safety approach. However, while we wait for that, Operation Safe Pass is welcome. Ill informed comments telling people wear plastic hats are not, as it also creates a barrier to getting more people cycling.
Cycle helmets are a piece of sports equipment and nothing more. If people want to wear then they are free to do so, but they use should should not be promoted on "road safety" grounds.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@kim, I agree with you that wearing a cycling helmet can not be regarded as a way of making roads safer. It is a red herring.
My understanding of Iam walker's current position is that nothing you can do - wearing a helmet, wearing a big blond wig or anything else you can do can change driver behaviour. And that he argues now for segregated infra.
This is why Dominic's Operation Close Pass is vital. It is not cyclist's behaviour that is the issue. Sure some folk jump red lights on their bikes, go out without lights in th dark, wear normal clothes or whatever but as with Ian walker's research, nothing the cyclist does e.g. Wear a flashing clown helmet, dress like a luminous dong, etc makes any difference. The drivers need to change their behaviour. When they see a cyclist as with much of continental Europe they improve their driving as we do not have airbags. Presumed liability helps change driver behaviour as will fining them for bad driving. Educating them I am less sure about. Personally I could accept a fine if I RLJ on a bike say a tenner. If I knew drivers were actually being fined for punishment passes etc. That is just my view. Helmet wearing is a distraction to avoid the real issue of presum d liability. Again, if I hit a pedestrian it is my fault as you can see most of them that step out. The ones who are drunk or whatever then you would need witnesses to show you could not avoid the,. Again just my view.
Checked the Ian walker paper on driver proximity from 2014 where he concludes there is little the cyclist can do. Of the seven outfits There was one outfit that altered the proximity of passes by more than chance fluctuation. That was the one where the cyclist was dressed as a police officer videoing the route. The outfit POLITE made no difference. Making it POLICE and adding a camera bought you some more space.
Ian Walker has a long cv. His underlying interest in helmets (bicycle and motorbike) is linked to grappling with people's underlying beliefs that they are maybe even not aware of, which prevents them changing their behaviours. Which is why he concludes separate infrastructure and I respectfully request that some close passing drivers are now fined for their behaviour. I like police officer banter - E.g. alright Stirling Moss, where's the fire? I like education of all kinds but to change driver behaviour it will take fines. Helmets are complete red herring by the way big man.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@kim
The close pass approach is based on evidence and was developed by the West Midlands Police after they have carried out an analysis of collision data.
I do wonder if some of the success WMP have had is because they led with the data.
By doing that, they perhaps countered a lot of the "war on motorists" nonsense.
The second thing they did was report results on what felt like a daily basis. Number of drivers stopped, number charged, number that weren't insured...
So people were under no illusion that
(A) The police were taking it seriously.
(B) It was ongoing.
(B) There were real consequences.And the third thing was a cycle-friendly blog, which they used to explain what they were doing and why.
Unless I've missed it, Edinburgh police haven't done any of these things.
So there's the feeling that this is just another "politically motivated" awareness (anti-driving) campaign that, like the other police campaigns, will simply wind down due to lack of real motivation.
As for the helmet post. There does seem to be an issue where, every time they criticise motorists for endangering cyclists, they feel the need to "even the score" by having a go at cyclists.
Maybe this is seen as being "fair," but it isn't. It's part of the nonsense that suggests there's a "debate." There isn't a debate, there are facts. And the facts say
(A) That a lrge number of cyclists are killed - or sustain life changing injuries - due to dangerous driving.
(B) Basically zero drivers/pedestrians are killed/seriously injured by cylists.
And it would be good if police allocated resources according to those facts.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@gibbo, excellent points
I wear a helmet most of the time. Well not there, I was just down the farmers market canvassing SNP, Tory and Labour on cycling commute on Lanark road. I won't bother with the politics here as I fear SW Edinurgh is going to reveal its ugly nasty side.
A helmet is a bit of polystyrene. It is unlikely to help you if a car hits you. E.g. The woman who chased and hit the cyclist in Stoke newington now in jail, the cyclist's injuries were not amelirated or made worse by wearing or not wearing a helmet.
What is wrong with the collective consciousness? I wear a helmet as if I fall off or get nknocked off by a pedestrian or cyclist it might reduce my bumps and scrapes. If I am hit by a car, helmet or no helmet I am in trouble.
What is a bit of polystyrene going to do? Why do people think a bit of polystyrene could offer protection when hit by a driver's vehicle?
Ian Walker has some other research showing that cyclists are more willing to take risks when wearing helmets? I will look at those stats.
Helmets are a red herring. Fine the drivers, build the infrastructure
Checked the helmet paper (Gamble and Walker 2016) it is lab experiment and subject (presumably a student) wears a bike helmet or a baseball cap as the mount for an eye tracker Then does some simulation and answers questions on risk taking. More likely to take risks in the lab simulation (no actual risk there) and respond to questionnaires as more of a risk taker if wearing the helmet. This research is more about underlying beliefs and not as strong as the 2014 paper.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@gembo
I also wear a helmet, and when I was brought down by tram lines a couple of years ago, I was glad it was the helmet that split in two, rather than my skull.
So, instead of death or brain damage, I was undamaged from the neck up. (My arm, leg, ribs... not so much...)
But, legally, it's a choice. And because it's a choice, it's probably something the police should stay away from. Especially given the police don't have a good track record when it comes to cyclists.
e.g. Refusing to enforce ASL laws, turning a blind eye to dangerous driving, spending a disproportionate amout of resource "cracking down" on cyclists...
Posted 7 years ago # -
@gibbo further very good points.
Helmets are maybe slightly more effective if you go over the handlebars than if you fall to the side. My friend who is now partially paralysed after head butting Tarmac over handle bars split the helmet in two. I doubt he is willing to replicate for experiment sake to see if he does more damage by going over the bars at 30mph and head butting Tarmac without his helmet. There is a chance he would actually try that, a very slight chance but his wife would definitely not let him. His accident was caused by flimsy mudguard locking front wheel and sending him over the top. That was inn2009 and he has been out with me a few times on a sit up and beg and latterly a couple of times on drops. He is a very resilient fellow given a future permanently on medication related to his partial paralysis.
So I do wear a helmet but agree that it should not be compulsory as it is a bit of polystyrene that will stop bumps and if worn correctly perhaps cushion the blows. I went over the bars in snow once coming off speed bump near murrayfield. Head butted kerb. Bit dazed. Got up did a bit of that on the spot jogging I imagine runs off injuries. Got back on bike. Chap in his garden was amazed. I was going very slowly so I think I would have had a large bump and maybe concussion without the helmet but not any more serious injuries.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I’m not currently sensing a lot of desire from East Lothian, Midlothian or the Scottish Borders compared say to Fife or Forth Valley who have already sent over Road Safety Officers and representatives to assess the viability of the operation.
From my own experience, most of the close passes executed on me personally in the Borders have been by Police Scotland vehicles (4 out of 6 in 2017) - typically on their way rushing to collect "evidence" from bakeries before it gets cold... on a more general level, despite there being a need for an OpClosepass down here, the traffic levels generally don't warrant it (probably) - perhaps in time it'll get to the stage where any officer going about his business will be on the lookout for it and acting accordingly? (Not that I see many away from their police stations - "evidence gathering" excepted)
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
Anyone who regularly braves the streets on two wheels knows that a minority of motorists have it in for them. They can show you the scars of the time that cab rammed them off the road, the forlorn picture of their crumpled steed taken for the loss adjuster. Some of them haven’t saddled up since. Most say the police did diddly-squat when they reported the offender, regardless of number plate and even CCTV evidence.
"
Posted 7 years ago # -
When I was growing up, helmets were for little kids learning to ride their bike. Adults did not wear them because adults don't generally fall off that much.
To have suggested, back then, that adults should wear them because it could save your life or prevent injury if hit by a car would have been laughable! Not sure what happened in between but if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it. Funny how attitudes change...
I do wear one and agree that a fall would be more risky without one. But they're not protection from RTCs.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Ah, but that's how you get generational change. A transformation has happened in skiing in the last 5years where helmet use must be up to 4/5 from 1/5.
It started not by trying to to convince adults they need a helmet, but they rapidly gained acceptance as mandatory in kid's lessons. 10-15 years later (which is not that long really) these kids are still wearing helmets as adults as it is all they have ever known. "It's common sense, like, why wouldn't I wear one?" Job done.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Yes, true, Klaxon! Funnily enough I was thinking about ski helmets when I was writing that.
The difference is that with skiing, the risks are fairly obvious and mitigating them is largely down to user-operator. I suppose it would be fair analogy to suggest that ski helmets should in fact be worn to prevent injury from a run-in with the piste machine?
Posted 7 years ago # -
@klaxon, what is the skiing data like? I can only think of Michael Schumacher who if I remember right, was off piste when he had his accident? I avoid skiing though. However, if I was forced to ski I would go Nordic rather than downhill or slalom. Do you wear a helmet for that!?
Posted 7 years ago # -
@gembo - my recollection of Nordic skiing (in Norway) was that it was done by all ages* in the same way that walking** is and helmets were not involved. It has a lot in common with cycling in the Netherlands in that respect, in the same way that downhill skiing has more in common with cycling in the UK (more gear, the preserve of the youngish and fittish).
* I vividly recall to this day the humiliation I experienced when, as a fairly fit, but novice, nordic skier, I was utterly unable to keep pace with a very old granny in front of me.
** one of the Nordic countries (Iceland, I think) doesn't have a word for cross-country skiing: they just call it the same thing as walking.
Posted 7 years ago # -
When I was growing up, nobody wore a bike helmet, and we fell a lot doing real wheel skids etc.
As to skiing, my youth experience similar. It's been nailed above - confirmation creep over a generation and - boom - I'm a total outlier going lidless (look much cooler, natch).
What concerns me now is being nutted on the piste by a speeding eejit with a nagic helmet which protects him and hurts me - that is now quite common as people use apps to outdo each other for top speed.
n.b. nobody with any sense would be anywhere near a piste basher, they only operate on closed runs. Biggest danger there is decapitation by the cables they use to hold themselves on steep pitches.
n.b.2 Schumacher was technically off piste, had a gopro on helmet and hit a rock
Posted 7 years ago # -
@domD Another vote of thanks for leading this initiative in Edinburgh (and it seems in Scotland). It's so important for drivers to know how to behave properly when overtaking cyclists: many just don't seem to know what a safe distance is, or don't care.
One road I would maybe suggest as a target is London Road/Portobello Road/Moira Terrace/Inchview Terrace. That whole road is terrible for drivers overtaking too close, and because it's still 30mph they're doing it at a fair speed too.
I try to avoid it if I can, but quite often need to cycle on part of it, and it always feels unsafe.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Yes skiing in Norway is like cycling in the Netherlands. When I lived there we had both bike racks and ski racks at work. It helps that we had snow on the ground until at least early May of course. Also I remember the doctor coming to see us when our child was born in January, i.e. just before the start of ski season and being extremely apologetic about the fact that some kind of trailer/sled contraption skiers strap on themselves to transport offspring was not recommended before 6 months old, meaning they had to suggest we refrain from skiing that year. He was obviously expecting us to be devastated by the news.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Hilarious close pass in the mean streets of Penicuick this morning. One guy toots but I shout to the peloton Friendly. Next one completely Mad, toot toot toot toot toot. Curiously we were all inside the narrow cycle lane so could have taken issue. The big lad who takes issue was not with us this mornng.
The a702 is closed from hill end west to dolphinton on Sunday's just now so that meant when we left the west linton moor road and rejoined the A701 it was a tad busy with cars. Not too bad going over to elsrickle and of course a massive blast on the a70 on home stretch, wind assist very light pedalling.
Big red barn at elsrickle now has wee red pie shed too.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Wee red pie shed?? Tell me more
Posted 7 years ago # -
@Neil
we only ever hit the big red barn just as it opens at 10a.m. once they even opened early for us. So always quiet but it looks like they maybe get very busy
So if you like their tiffin and pies and filter coffee and it is anice day and the cafe is busy you can get served quickly and sit in the sunshine just up from the Big Red Barn buillding at the all new Wee Red Pie Shed. Nice shed, (they are selling the book Cabin Porn in the Barn as well as A Murmuration of Starlings)
It is quite big as sheds go, made of red corrugated metal, prone to selling you pies. I estimate not scotch pies for a pound though.
Posted 7 years ago #
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