"Over 50%" doing over 40 on the A8 by the airport? 100% more like. If I've picked a hire car up from the and drive it back in to town, everyone overtakes me while I do 40.
That's a place I do use the rubbish cycle path because the road scares me so much, and I cycle on 40 limit roads (admittedly not dual carriageways) most days.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
Operation Close Pass in Edinburgh
(630 posts)-
Posted 6 years ago #
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I'm going to be contentious here and agree with fimm. I accept the cycle path is sub-optimal, but watching people cycle on the dual A8 in the morning with a low sun in the East & a road full of commuting cars make me wince. The words 'discretion' & 'valour' come to mind.
Posted 6 years ago # -
"I'm going to be contentious here and agree with fimm"
Agreeing with fimm is seldom contentious.
As to riding on the A8, personal choice.
I wouldn't.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Admittedly I'm usually on my Brompton going along there - the process is train from Livingston to Edinburgh Park, cycle to airport, collect hire car, place Brompton in hire car, drive off. So I'm there post full rush hour but it is still pretty busy.
I once did a cycling skills day (group riding, that sort of thing) at Inglston and seem to recall being admired for having cycled the 8 miles there from central Edinburgh! I'm pretty sure I went via Gogar Station Road but I can't recall what my choice of road vs path was early on a weekend morning...
Posted 6 years ago # -
Phoned 101 to report a close pass this morning. Apparently the operation has now finished, so they're reverting to the "old" system for dealing with such reports. Not sure in what way this is different for cyclists.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Operation close pass is finished without anyone being fined and with one poor Malaysian medical student killed? Surely not?
Maybe linked to heightened terror threat but then I was at a very good joint education / police initiative presentation yesterday the polis were heavily involved in and I counted three uniformed and two plain clothes officers at tables near me.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Apparently the operation has now finished
If this is true, I am not in the least bit surprised, though Dom D did say Edinburgh's was a pilot.
However, I've seen enough 'pilot' schemes/initiatives in my time to know that too often they are the first implementation of a very good idea, but the top level enthusiasm disappears a week after the schemes are underway, and practitioner enthusiasm disappears when what started as a hopefully new 'business as usual' begins to require more money and time to maintain, which top level supporters are then reluctant to provide, citing budgetary and resource constraints rather than below-par measures of success, which pilot schemes are invariably without. A pilot scheme is really a proof-of-concept, not a fully fledged introduction, but in their enthusiasm, too many practitioners aren't allowed to make that distinction.
'We' need to make sure that we know what the measures of success were (or are). An arbitrary 'number of drivers spoken' to is not a measure of success, it's a measure. Is 10 a success? 100? 1000?; what makes it a success is how many were necessary, and how long the effect of the educational aspect lasts.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@Frenchy - bit of a 'blip' there. I'll rectify/update on Monday. Have you been given a diary appointment?
@gembo - Op Close Pass isn't finished! Far from it in my mind. Certainly the terrorism threat and events like Robbie Williams and Scotland v England will divert police resources and public focus but we're working/planning behind the scenes. The pilot has identified a few operational issues I need to resolve to facilitate a national roll out. Equally we're identifying the equivalent of me in the other Police divisions to drive the operation there as well as the financing.
There was a meeting last week and the pilot figures and announcements should follow once all confirmed. It's also worth noting that with public footage reporting the wheels of justice don't turn quickly with up to 70 days available to even identify a driver let alone submit a report. I have numerous enquiries ongoing in respect of this.
This week is the Spokes Meeting and bike breakfast activity as well as public reporting follow up. The following week w/c 19th should have a physical Op Close Pass activity (terror threat depending).
I'm still working on a 'trading places' awareness initiative as well as getting the Close Pass message into car shows and similar events.
I only wish there was more of me to progress quicker! Thank you again for all the support.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@domD good to know you are hanging in there. Bit like Ian Murray of Scottish labour hopefully you will soon have six or seven colleagues just like him
Posted 6 years ago # -
@DomD - Yes, diary appointment on Monday. Cheers.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@Frenchy - I'd be interested to hear (privately) how that is handled? Please feel free (if necessary) to advise them that specialist advice (namely me) is available to support them.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@ Dom D glad you're 'back'.
Clearly you can't spend all your time on CCE!...
Updates as necessary welcome.
I'm sure I'm not the only person here who appreciates the way the police - policed - the event on Wednesday.
I hope they felt appreciated, but was all a bit intense and their 'in the background approach' might not even have been noticed by most participants.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@ Dom D
Wasn't there meant to be one month of "awareness spreading," then drivers would be charged.
What's happening with that 2nd part? Has it been shelved? If so, why?
Posted 6 years ago # -
@gibbo -we're following the WMP model where the education element will remain the central theme of the physical police run Op Close Pass days using the mat etc as well as at external activity at shopping centres etc.
Enforcement is associated with public reporting and when I deploy the unmarked cycle on its own (more to come in time).
Interestingly whilst we've had a steady number of reports from the public the majority (that had sufficient evidence) have elected for education when asked for their opinion.
Education with enforcement is the crux of this initiative. Whilst I appreciate that some are keen for drivers to be fined for things to change it still needs the same social media medium to tell the public about it. It's the same fear of getting caught. As referenced earlier in the thread, the pilot is the proof of concept. I think (hope) Op Close Pass is part of a long game...
Posted 6 years ago # -
"Whilst I appreciate that some are keen for drivers to be fined for things to change"
I'm sure some are, but one issue is that quite a few people on here seem to have been 'told' that enforcement would follow.
So, perhaps, (for some) an issue of credibility/what to believe.
'We' have long given up hoping for education (never mind enforcement/fines) for motorists crossing ASL box lines.
Clearing dealing with close passes is much more important than ASL issues, but there remains a lingering suspicion that 'the police promise, fail to deliver and move on to other headline grabbers'.
"I think (hope) Op Close Pass is part of a long game..."
So do we all!
Needs to be resourced - and worth resourcing.
Not expecting the sort of money that goes into drink drive campaigns, but...
Posted 6 years ago # -
I am afraid whilst I applaud Dom d for his work I would suggest only fines will influence behaviour. Probably would not need tht many fines. Also fines as part of a wider process. But fines are the bit that work. If I had a close pass that I wished to report I would always pick the fine option, but then I do not drive. I was punishment passed by a tractor and very wide load at Carnwath today such that I went over the left white line and nearly off Tarmac to avoid squishing. However, that is so hilarious and the tractor driver turned off towards auchengray instantly so I Forgot him and focused on being blown home to Edinburgh.
My understanding of WMP is they fined drivers and they also reported all stats daily so I would respectfully suggest we are only following the least effective bit of the WMP model and we are all being taken for kippers.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Wasn't there some graph recently that correlated English road casualties going up with the increase in 'driver training' programmes that let you dodge getting points on your licence?
Wish I could remember where
Posted 6 years ago # -
"one issue is that quite a few people on here seem to have been 'told' that enforcement would follow"
Just to clarify, notices of intended prosecution have been sent/hand delivered to registered keepers of offending vehicles in respect of enforcement. It's worth noting that these can take around 70 days to get details back circumstances depending.
Enforcement results just aren't as immediate as say a seatbelt ticket at the roadside for example.
"'We' have long given up hoping for education (never mind enforcement/fines) for motorists crossing ASL box lines"
I can appreciate that given previous 'initiatives'. In mitigation I can assure you that ANY red light offence that I witness on duty (regardless of mode of transport!) is addressed at the scene. .
Posted 6 years ago # -
@dom d good. That is what needs to be publicised - fines incurred.
There is no war on the motorist. It is mental that in 21st century UK you can step out of yr door in Balerno and drive all the way into Edinburgh in a single occupant vehicle with a constant stream of traffic all of which contains single occupant vehicles.
When we were poorer there was far more driver sharing going on.
There is also some sort of collective amnesia going on about the mass weapons of destruction that cars are. Driver on driver, driver on ped and driver on cyclist. All unacceptable in the modern world where buses, trains, trams, bikes are all easily available and to such a spec that the journey should be good.
Vehicle emissions are also destroying the air we breath.
So publicising the fining of a few drivers is not a war on drivers it is a rational act of a just society.
Posted 6 years ago # -
"My understanding of WMP is they fined drivers and they also reported all stats daily so I would respectfully suggest we are only following the least effective bit of the WMP model and we are all being taken for kippers."
Having visited WMP and speaking to them on a regular basis I can confirm that they educate drivers when stopped 'on the mat' and report to the court based on public reporting. They have much higher public reporting numbers down there? Latterly they deployed the bike on its own and reported like the public
We're moving to the stage of deploying the bike on its own in Edinburgh (as the roll out phase starts elsewhere).
We've got work to do with social media, no dispute there. But I'm certainly not taking anyone for a kipper.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@DomD - Will be in touch after my appointment, ta.
WMP also, I believe, prosecuted any close passers who were simultaneously committing other offences (no MOT, on the phone, etc.). Also drivers who, during education, failed to "guarantee belief they won’t endanger a vulnerable road user again".
I presume similar is happening here?
Posted 6 years ago # -
@ Frenchy - thanks and yes same principles apply. We've added in other enforcement activity in the times I do the education on the mat (otherwise it would be down time for the other officers on the detail) which is what has produced all of our extra results so far.
Pretty much everyone I've spoken too has been Mr or Mrs Normal. But then again it's Mr or Mrs Normal who is the driver at 99% of the KSI's I've been to as well...
Posted 6 years ago # -
Good to hear, cheers. Looking forward to hearing more on Wednesday!
Posted 6 years ago # -
@gembo
I would suggest only fines will influence behaviour.
When WM police launched their close pass operation, they posted a long blog post that explained what they were doing and why.
(A good idea, IMO, because it counters the "war on drivers" nonsense.)
Here's a quote from that post:
"Our time and effort, we have quickly realised, is better spent enforcing the law and prosecuting, thus creating a scenario whereby should someone not give a cyclist the time and space necessary or fail to see them completely they should expect to be prosecuted. In other words the carrot goes out the window and in comes the stick. Why some might ask? Well if drivers expect to be prosecuted for committing offences they suddenly stop committing them, unsurprising correlation I know but it’s the truth. Once drivers become aware that an infringement involving a cyclist is one they should expect to be prosecuted for, they suddenly become more aware of them on the road and in turn start giving them the time and space they should lawfully have as an equal road user."So it's not a case of "some are keen for drivers to be fined for things to change," it's that this WHOLE THING is based on the conclusion that, without fines, things won't change.
So, your quote:
My understanding of WMP is they fined drivers and they also reported all stats daily so I would respectfully suggest we are only following the least effective bit of the WMP model
seems on the money.
Without the fines and without the public awareness - via consistent social media and roadside signs like they have on the continent - the level of changes is likely to be minimal.
Posted 6 years ago # -
BTW, for those who haven't read it, here's the link to the WMP blog post:
https://trafficwmp.wordpress.com/2016/09/09/junction-malfunction-and-a-new-dawn/
Posted 6 years ago # -
Thanks @gibbo
The first para. Of the WMP Blog discusses the use of statistics. The police used central motorway group to crunch numbers around what their safer cycling campaign should focus on. (This is a very rational thing to do).
The second para. Of the WMP blog starts The most common complaint from cyclists AND NOW ACTION BY PROSECUTION was the close pass.
Jumping back to the introductory para. Before the blog starts the author states that if drivers expect to be prosecuted they change their behaviour. The author notes this is an obvious conclusion however he or she feels compelled to point this out.
@gibbo should I read on to find that presumed liability is being suggested?
So now we are at the hinge point for Dom D and his valiant attempt to emulate WMP
Something along the lines of a press release explaining why the prosecutions were necessary - just a few fines and the expectation that you will be fined and drivers become better drivers and the roads become safer. Yes there is ongoing education but the fines are the crucial factor. If prosecutions are not enforced driver behaviour won't change.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@gembo
The first para. Of the WMP Blog discusses the use of statistics. The police used central motorway group to crunch numbers around what their safer cycling campaign should focus on. (This is a very rational thing to do).
The fact they used statistics to identify the leverage point was one of the things that so impressed me about their approach.
We cyclists have been "seduced and abandoned" by well-meaning promises by Edinburgh police.
Remember when they were going to spend a week educating drivers that they can't stop in ASLs, then they were going to give out tickets?
And remember how, after that week's education, they forgot all about it and FOI requests proved they'd never given out a single ticket - ever?
Not only are those "education" periods pointless if they lead to nothing, but the lack of follow up reinforces the message that it's ok to stop in ASLs.
Is this going to be another one of these? That Frenchy was told by the police that the operation is over doesn't fill me with confidence.
So now we are at the hinge point for Dom D and his valiant attempt to emulate WMP
Dom definitely deserves appreciation for his efforts. But, without proper buy in from those above him, he can only do so much.
And, if he's reassigned to other initiatives, we're just going to end up back where we started.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Anyone else up for writing to Dom's ultimate boss (the heid bummer at Police Scotland) and expressing support for OpClosepass and asking about rolling it out nationally? Talking actual letter on actual paper writing rather than email.
Can't be a bad thing - Dom gets the support here, heid bummer hears of the positive public engagement (insert more buzz-phrases here) and hopefully Dom also gets the additional support from on high too...
Posted 6 years ago # -
Worth doing.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Not directly related, but will add to 'pressure on resources' -
Posted 6 years ago #
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