CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Commuting

Cyclist down (Shandwick Place)

(271 posts)
  • Started 3 months ago by Rulou
  • Latest reply from the canuck

  1. rbrtwtmn
    Member

    I think that a powerful argument when people come to talking about banning people from cycling in any one location is to highlight that travelling from east to west here there are no safe and sensible options.

    If anyone hasn't got out a map to look at this it's worth doing. You think that there are safe options, but take a look. There are no half-reasonable routes at all. Even the NCN route, with its own practical kerb-hopping failings and grumpy pedestrians, involves crossing often in front of parked coaches. My other half was almost knocked down there travelling west by a coach on the same day that Zhi Min Soh died. And exiting from the extreme cobbles of Randolph Place can be nasty - I've had an incident there with someone turning right across my path from Melville St.

    If you go looking for an east-west route by travelling south down Lothian road you're faced with nasty right turns. And you're pretty much committed as far south as the canal or the tangle to get onto Morrison St. If you travel north looking for a route you're pretty much set to end up in Stockbridge.

    About the only doable thing is to use Hope Street - which means really major and silly north-south zig-zags - and it's far from being a safe and lovely route itself.

    So 'which safe route would you like me to use instead' seems like quite a powerful question. "Actually now you come to mention it I just want to ban cycling everywhere" is easier to argue against than "I'm just looking out for your welfare"...

    Posted 3 months ago #
  2. rbrtwtmn
    Member

    Oh - and it's essential that we remind people about how high a proportion of vehicles using Lothian Road are bikes too.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  3. Frenchy
    Member

    Oh - and it's essential that we remind people about how high a proportion of vehicles using Lothian Road are bikes too.

    25% of rush hour (8-9am) northbound traffic, in case anyone doesn't know Spokes' traffic count data off by heart.

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/2017/05/again-bikes-%e2%86%91%e2%86%91-cars-%e2%86%93%e2%86%93-a-great-legacy-for-the-new-council/

    Posted 3 months ago #
  4. Big_Smoke
    Member

    Took me a while to say something about this but one was physically sick about it.

    The fact such an incident could occur because someone wasn't willing to put in the extra minutes to design it properly.

    Had to deal with ignorant mean spirited people at work who just treated it like a joke, even tried to push that stupid video expecting you to cross at a preferred angle and refuse to believe me when I told them it wasn't possible, they actually think I've been brainwashed all because I think it's wrong to let people die over nothing.

    The fact that the people responsible for such travesties who build layouts that are dangerous today and expecting people to change their behaviour in this day and age is insulting.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  5. Frenchy
    Member

    As I stood looking at the flowers by the roadside this morning, I noticed a blue minibus driving past, with the driver using a microphone. "Highland Tours", or something like that, didn't get VRN.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  6. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Frenchy

    I think the most fitting tribute to Miss Soh would be to call 101 for every single tour bus driver that we see doing commentary. £500 plus points. They'll have to up ticket prices and employ more staff.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  7. urchaidh
    Member

    White un-liveried mini-coach heading up towards the castle this morning. The driver had a large head mounted mic on and was clearly delivering a commentary.

    I hadn't really noticed this behaviour before reading the discussions on here following last week's tragedy, but is is clearly ubiquitous.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  8. Frenchy
    Member

    @IWRATS - Aye, I'd planned on reporting it, but wasn't quick enough at switching on my camera to get the license plate.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  9. Roibeard
    Member

    I don't know who (no doubt someone on here) organised the piper to attend today, but thank you for that. They provided a respectful bookend to the silence.

    Robert

    Posted 3 months ago #
  10. algo
    Member

    The piper is my friend Mike - an excellent musician, artist and cyclist, who runs this tour company:

    https://pipingscottours.com/

    they have a facebook page too.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

  12. Arellcat
    Moderator

    In a way, the whole tram track 'awareness' (see other thread) bears some parallel with the history of parachutes in the RAF in WW1.

    Pilots very quickly wanted them; the RAF was ambivalent for a long time and development was slow.

    The typical design at the time was to have the parachute stowed in the fuselage. You jumped, your static line yanked the parachute free, and it opened as you fell. It worked in ideal conditions; the rest of the time it either tangled hopelessly or caught on something and tore away from you as you fell. The RAF would have said pilots were 'aware' of the risks of flying. The pilots were doing what pilots do in the best way they knew how.

    "I recalled how many men had died [in fires at altitude] - all because someone had thought so little of us that they believed providing us with parachutes would encourage us to abandon our aircraft - my anger was…unusual for me." (1917)

    In 1921, the Government was obliged to admit that in the interests of economy it had closed down its parachute research section.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  13. Tulyar
    Member

    Remember that the law requires all PCV to have the name and address of the operator's registered premises in 1" block sans serif lettering that can be clearly read from the nearside kerb - 90% of the time this is on the lower bodywork just behind the front wheel arch

    The vehicle must also be displaying the O licence disc (orange, blue or green) which must be the disc issued for that vehicle and will carry details of the O Licence number, and operator's registered name.

    Special, points to spot the only coach that Scottish Citylink actually 'owns' when it is running on the 900 - the rest are 50-50 split between Parks of Hamilton and Stagecoach Western Buses (apart from a stray from Fife Scottish that does one peak hour 'extra run' in the evening)

    Posted 3 months ago #
  14. Tulyar
    Member

    Note to chdot & those on this thread. Some interesting technical detail on construction of tram tracks, and best practice in design/construction that might warrant separate thread with engineering bias.

    Widely noted in tram operating circles that the quality of embedded rail detail for Edinburgh was dire by comparison to contemporary renewal of track (11Km) in Blackpool and Manchester Metrolink extensions.

    The Manchester construction set a load bearing standard for the sub-grade (the ground supporting the tram track slabs, the road surfaces abutting the track slab and the manhole chamber rings) This required that appropriate tests were carried out and if the load bearing capacity of the sub grade was not adequate, the contract had provision to compensate the contractor for additional remedial work to ensure the completed track was on a strong and stable base (sorry!).

    The cracked track slab upper surfaces, and sinking road and manholes suggest that the supporting ground under Shandwick Place and Princes Street is not adequately supporting the road and tram track that sits on it.

    It is also unwise but a frequent practice to place access covers to utilities in the strip between the left side rail and the kerb, right in the zone where most cyclists ride, just look at the state of Shandwick Place. The edge kerbs (broken and loose) around the Shandwick Place tram stop are also a cycle tyre trap, although you won't normally be that far over to get past a stopped bus.

    Especially dangerous, I noted on Wednesday, riding past buses at bus stops adjacent to the tram stop you have a narrow strip of tarmac and then the blockwork of the tram track, where in some places the tarmac has dropped to leave a very severe step that will certainly bring you down if you happen to clip it - very difficult to measure this aside from an early morning visit with minimal traffic.

    I've also noticed fresh painted yellow dots at Haymarket (Diagram 1066 road markings) which are one way to mark the Developed Kinetic Envelope (DKE) or the space you don't want to be in when a tram goes past. I suspect that there are other places where a repaint is needed.

    There are also at least 2 'naked' road plates which have been in place for at least 6 months(?) This one could prove deadly if you catch it badly on a bike (by Scott Monument)

    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4266/35185685345_a38dd7a771_b.jpg (June 8)

    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4162/33658180683_2637da35f6_b.jpg (location context May 4)

    Not a good photo (snatched between buses) 1" step top left corner extends across the main 'cycling zone'

    This plate long term on Shandwick Place

    https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2911/33495666772_c5b460f29a_b.jpg

    Posted 3 months ago #
  15. Stickman
    Member

  16. rbrtwtmn
    Member

    Similar to stv link above but from BBC
    Can anyone explain what 'being investigated by the Crown' means?

    Posted 3 months ago #
  17. gembo
    Member

    Scottish fatalities investigation unit looks inot unexplained deaths. Part of crown office and procurator fiscal service

    Which was not something I knew about. Fatal accident inquiries also part of COPFS

    Posted 3 months ago #
  18. ARobComp
    Member

    http://www.copfs.gov.uk/investigating-deaths/our-role-in-investigating-deaths

    Crown office and Procurator Fiscal. Assuming that this is because the girl is dead so therefore unable to press charges?

    Posted 3 months ago #
  19. ih
    Member

    Criminal action could be taken if that's the direction that the result of the inquiry points to.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  20. jonty
    Member

    "Pressing charges" isn't really a thing. As a rule for more "ordinary" crimes, the police charge someone then pass a file to the Procurator Fiscal and the PF decides whether to proceed to a trial where the crown will attempt to convince a jury of the person's guilt.

    However, if the victim doesn't wish the trial to go ahead or won't cooperate it will have a strong effect on the decisions of both the police and PF - it may be hard to convince the jury of anything without cooperation from the victim and hard to justify that attempting to do so would be in the public interest. This is where the idea of "pressing charges" comes from - in practical terms, victims often have a veto over whether a prosecution is pursued.

    However, if I was a known nasty piece of work and knocked you out in front of loads of witnesses and CCTV, the police & PF could still pursue a prosecution regardless of your wishes if they reckon it's worth it to get me off the streets and that there's a good chance of succeeding. This would obviously also apply if you'd died as a result.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

  22. wishicouldgofaster
    Member

    Here's what gets me in relation to this - if driving my car I went into the back of another car, I would be presumed to be in the wrong. However this common sense rule of keeping a safe distance seems to be totally forgotten about if it's a bicycle in front.

    If this bus had kept a safe distance this may not have been a tragedy.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  23. the road has a limit of 20MPH. If the bus had been a safe distance back, it may not even had been involved in what would have been a minor cycle accident

    Posted 3 months ago #
  24. Ed1
    Member

    If the bike was in the same lane then yes you would expect at low speeds to be able to stop however if the cyclist switched lane abruptly by falling in to another lane then would not nessarily expect so. In the same way if cycling not expect a car to suddenly change lane or if a person suddenly walked out in front when cycling someone may crash. If someone fell in front of tram don't think could stop either. Blaming bad driving would be the cheapest option but won't fix the bad design

    Posted 3 months ago #
  25. Tulyar
    Member

    I've studied the photographs post crash which show the positions of the Rabbies Tours minibus and the bike just forward of the rear wheels.

    I also checked the site on 1 June and noted the scored surface in the concrete of the track slab.

    The minibus is stopped with wheels facing straight ahead well over to the right with the left wheels around 30cm to the right of the left side rail. It is positioned as if the driver was about to turn right into Queensferry Street OR was passing the victim cycling, as many do, in the generous space between the kerb and the left side rail

    There us a very slight mark on the nearside of the front valance of the minibus, where we might presume the initial impact between the bike and minibus took place.

    The mark and position of the bike don't seem to add up for the cyclist falling into the path of the minibus after clipping the tram rail but they might tie in to a loss of control through striking the distressed manhole frame, which was in trouble with a previous repair in January this year and had been patched again since then

    Recent photo (12/06/17) shows manhole in much the same state as on 31/05. Ruler = 15mm wide in 20cm sections 'hole' at least 20mm deep around frame with steel vertical edge well over 6mm (limit for safe upstand of steel in tarmac = 3mm)

    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4265/35138563651_5e730db060_c.jpg

    Context photo

    Rear tyre of minibus stopped at cross drain in 4-foot score marks in concrete just past cross drain on 1/06 22.30

    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4288/35261746875_ccdb56a09f_z.jpg

    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4249/35095518492_b938ccbb76_z.jpg

    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4239/34657441000_a359a10257_c.jpg

    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4234/34201623314_0009601575_c.jpg

    This was same location in January with previous repair failing (repaired again between Jan & May 2017)

    https://farm1.staticflickr.com/668/31341365964_6b67208651_c.jpg

    Just past this point there is a real danger in the track slab - appearing in many places between Waverley Bridge and Haymarket, with some now being patched up with tarmac or concrete. Hit this and you'll be pretty certain to crash down .

    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4225/34415863104_cd1a12313a_z.jpg

    3 metres to the east this one has been patched up

    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4277/34450586273_2f1c228f36_z.jpg

    and this baby at W Maitland Street was very probably a causal factor for the 2 identical morning peak crashes between No 38 buses and trams - pulling out to go past a cyclist riding wide to avoid these holes

    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4202/34450490703_cb49bec092_c.jpg

    Posted 3 months ago #
  26. Tulyar
    Member

    Oh and be very careful if you are riding past buses stopped by the Mound tram stop, this is deadly and right where you might naturally position to go past the bus

    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4258/35264703685_76d6c6997e_c.jpg

    Posted 3 months ago #
  27. cosmok
    Member

    How on earth can something like that be considered safe and left in place, especially in light of recent events???? Absolutely shocking.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  28. Tulyar
    Member

    I look forward to a whole load more condition pictures of the road pavements abutting the track slab and the cracks continuing to appear in the track slab

    Do capture the 'facing profile (ie the bit of vertical steel you will hit and snakebite on - or come off) of the 2 road plates that have been living on Princes Street and Shandwick place for at least 6 months The exposed fixing spikes are especially deadly.

    Road plate hazards - both in excess of 6 months right where people cycle!
    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4266/35185685345_a38dd7a771_m.jpg
    https://farm1.staticflickr.com/529/33029892521_6a3300309c_m.jpg (Shandwick Place)
    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4205/35434760155_c3f6e7abc2_m.jpg (Princes Street)
    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4270/35394997866_d4f51b33b2_m.jpg
    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4281/35395000256_25350603ca_m.jpg

    Posted 3 months ago #
  29. nedd1e_h
    Member

    Looking at the marks in this image, it appears to me the victim fell before arriving at the drain cover:

    https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4288/35261746875_ccdb56a09f_z.jpg

    (Falling because of the drain cover would have resulted in marks further up the road)

    I agree the roads in general are in an unsafe state, but let's not let "the trams" off the hook by serving up distractions.

    In any case, I thought we weren't supposed to be speculating here. So let's wait for the official report, eh?

    Posted 3 months ago #
  30. fimm
    Member

    Noticed that there is now a ghost bike against the railings, just next to where the flowers used to be.

    Posted 2 months ago #

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